Mechapinata High Command

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Satan
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Mechapinata High Command

Post by Satan »

There should be a badge for defeating this thing. Here are my reasons:

1. It does not require IotM equipment, and all armor slots (plus sidekick) prohibit IotM equipment. Therefore it is possible without any IotM equipment to achieve, and even having the use of IotM's only makes it slightly easier (the only really useful IotM slot is the talisman for stat increase).

2. Short of insane stat gain, it requires being atleast level 70 and making strategic use of available resources for buffing.

3. It takes many, many months to get to a point where defeating it is viable.

4. What's the point of a secret boss without any reward?
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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Satan »

At the very least, some kind of unique drop after beating it. Or more drops than normal. Something.
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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Harry Dresden »

You realize it's optional, right? You don't even get that far unless you do a specific thing, and it's not even close to an optimal thing. Not to mention league foes are not meant to be solo killed.

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Satan »

That's my point. You go out of your way to complete a task on a much higher, secret difficulty, but we're getting the exact same rewards for doing so. And I realize that league foes aren't meant to be solo killed, but every player has the capability to do this on their own by making their own league (either original or on a multi-league to prevent collision).

Most importantly: Why is there a secret boss that only solo players can fight after figuring out the trick, with zero extra reward, if league foes aren't meant to be solo killed?
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Kinak
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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Kinak »

Satan wrote:Most importantly: Why is there a secret boss that only solo players can fight after figuring out the trick, with zero extra reward, if league foes aren't meant to be solo killed?
Because otherwise the math wouldn't work out properly. Sorry if it gives you the wrong impression.

But I'm loathe to include anything that encourages soloing league bosses because, well... exactly this. I don't want to give people the wrong idea.

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Hardware »

I would have to agree with Satan. While I understand that leagues are supposed to be group projects, The High Command was specifically put in special. If it were just a matter of "if you solo, you fight the High Command", then I'd understand. You don't, though. Without wearing/using special items, you will only fight the Swarm as a solo. The High Command is something that you not only have to solo, but you have to go out of your way to even meet up with. If they really want to pull the "league villains are meant to be fought as a group" card, then why include a secret boss that is intended for a special solo run? That combination really doesn't make sense. So, I agree that there should be SOMETHING (a special drop, a badge, a profile avatar, a note on the profile like the one saying that you're on a leaderboard, SOMETHING) as a reward for beating a villain that's not only probably the toughest thing in the game, but that you had to jump through hoops to even get a shot at, let alone defeat.

Otherwise, if we're really going to stick to wanting it to be a group endeavor, then eliminate the high command entirely and just stop at the swarm. Without some kind of additional reward, there's no sense in league members putting on the mechapinata gear. Unless you're just so hard up for minutes that you'd rather fight something tougher in order to save a few turns of combat, I can't see the reason why anyone would want to make the fight harder for themselves when there's no other benefit for doing so.

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Hardware »

Kinak wrote:But I'm loathe to include anything that encourages soloing league bosses because, well... exactly this. I don't want to give people the wrong idea.
But, including a secret league villain boss that can only be reached by soloing... encourages soloing league bosses..... which gives people the wrong idea...

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Harry Dresden »

Hardware wrote:
Kinak wrote:But I'm loathe to include anything that encourages soloing league bosses because, well... exactly this. I don't want to give people the wrong idea.
But, including a secret league villain boss that can only be reached by soloing... encourages soloing league bosses..... which gives people the wrong idea...
And now you've just explained why there is not a badge or special drops. Because there is no reason to fight the "secret league villain boss" and we're not encouraging soloing at all. Quite the opposite, since the High Command is extremely difficult to solo.

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Kinak »

Harry Dresden wrote:And now you've just explained why there is not a badge or special drops. Because there is no reason to fight the "secret league villain boss" and we're not encouraging soloing at all. Quite the opposite, since the High Command is extremely difficult to solo.
I was going to write this big post trying to explain this, but you said it way more succinctly. Thanks :)

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Satan »

By even having it exist, you're encouraging us to fight it. Anyone who wishes to fight one solo can easily start their own league, or make an alt league, so it's not like it has to interfere with regular league fights.
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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by seventhcross »

Kinak wrote:Because otherwise the math wouldn't work out properly.
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Isn't this enough of a reason? It only exists because of the way using pinata gear lessens the amount of each type of pinata that you have to fight. Yes, having it exist does encourage some people to fight it. Giving a badge for the accomplishment encourages a whole new set of people to fight it. This is what is trying to be avoided.
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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Satan »

Hence why I suggested perhaps a unique item or more drops.
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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by seventhcross »

More drops might be feasible. A unique item would again encourage a whole set of people to try and fight it.
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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Cristiona »

More drops would also encourage it. Clearly, we should just remove the High Command and add more Swarms to make the math work.

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by xKiv »

Satan wrote:By even having it exist.
This.
Why do we climb Mount Everest (and consider it an achievement)? Because it's there (and the highest mountain).
Why do we fight mechapinata high command (and ...)? Because it's there (and the last-most pinata).

On one hand, this is encouragement to do it.
On the other hand, I have different fingers.
On the third hand, this "encouragement" is also a sufficient reward. No need to add anything on top of that.

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Hardware »

seventhcross wrote:
Kinak wrote:Because otherwise the math wouldn't work out properly.
Cheers!
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Isn't this enough of a reason? It only exists because of the way using pinata gear lessens the amount of each type of pinata that you have to fight. Yes, having it exist does encourage some people to fight it. Giving a badge for the accomplishment encourages a whole new set of people to fight it. This is what is trying to be avoided.
Which, again, proves my point. The pinata gear mechanic (skipping lower fights and building up to a higher fight) doesn't make it necessary for there to be a higher fight. Yes, the two have to exist together, but the cause and effect are backwards. In actuality, it's the higher fight that makes the pinata gear mechanic necessary. If there weren't a higher fight, the pinata gear mechanic would be pointless, because it doesn't save you enough minutes to make it worthwhile compared to the higher fight that you have to take in order to acquire them. It's not like the higher fight gets you anything, so I can't imagine anyone wearing the pinata gear in a non-solo villain run. The only people who would wear the pinata gear would be the solos, which means that the mechanic (and the special boss that it allows you to face) encourages soloing.

I agree with Cris. Take out the High Command and stop at swarms. Or, just take out the pinata gear mechanic and you won't need anything past swarms, anyway.

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Patojonas »

Actually, from my experience, you can only reach it if using the mechapinata!! sidekick, even with all the MechaP gear you can't make it there.

There being a single, deliberate way coded to specifically reach it makes that math excuse a strange argument, it really wasn't needed.
Therefore I agree with Satan, there should be some kind of reward.

+1 Prestige bonus? (isn't worth the trouble so this wouldn't be a reason to compel people to do it, but its there in case they do, so no complaining)
Slightly increased drop chances in future fights? (measly long-term benefit, would only need to be done once)
A bonus cache of drops for taking out the leader? ( like the prestige, something, but not worth the trouble)
Pinata Leader Ribbon added to the league's trophy case? (show off purposes only, maybe together with one of the above)

All of these small things, easy to implement, with little impact and not worth the trouble therefore not making people go for it or if they do only once.
Its like maso, its there, prolly not worth the 2 extra mettle but there's 2 extra mettle for doing it and it's named in the retcon history for show off purposes.

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Satan »

Patojonas wrote:Actually, from my experience, you can only reach it if using the mechapinata!! sidekick, even with all the MechaP gear you can't make it there.

There being a single, deliberate way coded to specifically reach it makes that math excuse a strange argument, it really wasn't needed.
Therefore I agree with Satan, there should be some kind of reward.

+1 Prestige bonus? (isn't worth the trouble so this wouldn't be a reason to compel people to do it, but its there in case they do, so no complaining)
Slightly increased drop chances in future fights? (measly long-term benefit, would only need to be done once)
A bonus cache of drops for taking out the leader? ( like the prestige, something, but not worth the trouble)
Pinata Leader Ribbon added to the league's trophy case? (show off purposes only, maybe together with one of the above)

All of these small things, easy to implement, with little impact and not worth the trouble therefore not making people go for it or if they do only once.
Its like maso, its there, prolly not worth the 2 extra mettle but there's 2 extra mettle for doing it and it's named in the retcon history for show off purposes.
This. Honestly I'd be fine with just getting a pinata leader ribbon for showoff.
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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by xKiv »

Patojonas wrote: There being a single, deliberate way coded to specifically reach it makes that math excuse a strange argument, it really wasn't needed.
Or maybe the sidekick just gives more disguise points than the entire outfit.
Math. It's what works, not what you feel entitled for.

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Patojonas »

xKiv wrote:
Patojonas wrote: There being a single, deliberate way coded to specifically reach it makes that math excuse a strange argument, it really wasn't needed.
Or maybe the sidekick just gives more disguise points than the entire outfit.
Math. It's what works, not what you feel entitled for.
Yes and No. Yes, it does have more disguise points. Still, if it were coded to grant the same as the whole pinata outfit it'd still be far better since it'd give the same benefit without occupying so many slots.

Instead, it is deliberately better than that and allows you to reach a foe that had no need to be there. For math purposes, placing another Horde in its place would still make it over 100 I think, since I recall ending with more than 100 points when I soloed it in my alts.

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Satan »

The mechapinata sidekick from what I understand ups the count by 2. If it gave only 1 instead, I don't think the mechapinata high command would be reachable, although I'd have to check to make sure.

EDIT: Actually, none of the math adds up the way we have it on the wiki. I think those values for numbers of pinatas to fight of each tier are wrong in some cases, otherwise the only way to horde would be to wear all 6 pinata pieces. Next time we have a pinata day, I'm going to take off all pinata equipment and try to verify the numbers as high as I can get. In any case, it's still a fact that if mechapinata sidekick didn't affect the pinata count, there would be no mathematical reason for the high command. There are many cases where math will simply not do what you want it to do, but this is not one of them.
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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Cristiona »

Satan wrote:In any case, it's still a fact that if mechapinata sidekick didn't affect the pinata count, there would be no mathematical reason for the high command.
But it does affect the pinata count. If your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle.
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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Hardware »

Cristiona wrote:
Satan wrote:In any case, it's still a fact that if mechapinata sidekick didn't affect the pinata count, there would be no mathematical reason for the high command.
But it does affect the pinata count. If your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle.
But WHY does it affect the count if the purpose isn't to face higher bad guys. You can't just say "well, we have this mechanic, so we had to add in higher bad guys...." when you didn't need to add the mechanic in the first place. That's like putting square tires on my car, and then saying that I have to get a bigger engine to run my car just so it can run at the same speed that it could have before I put the square tires on.

So, if someone would like to explain WHY this mechanic was put into place in such a way that it doesn't sound like the end result was meant to be "fighting bigger bosses," then I'm all ears. Otherwise, it looks like square tires to me.

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Satan »

Tires be super square.
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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by xKiv »

I think people here are putting too much "ass" into their assumptions.
There's a huge difference between the math in the game's conceptual mechanics, the math in the code, our observation in the wiki, and the math we derive from those observations.
There's also a huge difference between making the underlying math simple/complicated and making its *consequences* simple/complicated.

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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Satan »

It's really very simple. The mechanic affects pinata equipment and allows you to skip the entire first group and get lots of +hp, but in return you have to fight another much stronger group towards the end. That balances out and would be fine. There's no reason to include the mechapinata sidekick as part of the mechanic, from what I remember it doesn't even give you + hp like the equipment. The sidekick maybe seemed like a good idea to throw in at the beginning, ok fine. But it directly results in fighting exactly 1 highest tier enemy when wearing all the pieces and using the mechapinata. And the sidekick doesn't even fit the trend of being equipment, so to implement it the code would have to go out of its way to include the sidekick.

Here are acceptable answers for why mechapinata high command exists:
1. Cause we said so.
2. Cause we wanted to make it.

Saying that it's simply a by-product of the math and nothing can be done about it is ridiculous, because it's only a by-product when you add in the one part of the mechanic that is unnecessary, and doesn't fit the trend of being new content and being equipment made from mechamache. The above answers are perfectly reasonable, don't try to convince us it was unavoidable when it quite clearly wasn't.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic. I'm gonna make an ascii art ribbon celebrating my achievement and put it in the league description >.>

EDIT: Apparently you can't have duplicate spaces in league description, so no ascii art. I give up.
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Re: Mechapinata High Command

Post by Cristiona »

Satan wrote:And the sidekick doesn't even fit the trend of being equipment, so to implement it the code would have to go out of its way to include the sidekick.
Yes. We did. There's this thing called "theme".
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