Twilight Forums

Not enough time to write quests? Of course there's time.

Shokwave's quest pool idea is nice. It'll makes the game unique each time through, so things don't get stagnant.

I like the quest-pool idea, but I also like the Transmogrifier.

If we call ascension "retcon", then it should send you through a new series of quest (with some kind of non-class-skill bonus), but as the same quest. If you want to play something else, you can always use the Transmogrifer.

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The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone
--October Project: "Dark Time"

I really like the idea of retconning, both as a term and as a concept.

You've just come off of the Ultimate Battle with Mick (as was stated before in the post that described the retcon), and you send your tali back in time with a little bit of your wisdom in it.

Now, you wouldn't be able to use a non-standard tali (no eyes or Abbadons), simply because those'd be ridiculous on a 1st-level character. Maybe the 2nd-tier talis, with a stipulation that you wouldn't get the Zion quest.

As for equipment and chips... why not tie it in to the crazy shit that's going on in Twilight already? You obviously have a weakness in the planar boundaries (the fiendish pit), and the demiurge had to get there somehow, so why not have one of the side-effects of using the time-travel thingy be that all your junk gets dumped into an alternate dimension where time doesn't exist? You obviously couldn't access it at first level (maybe have access to it be unlocked via a noncombat at the portal or something, maybe even a quest at 3rd or 4th level).

Also, I really like the idea of your choices affecting your reputation/quest pool for the rest of your retcon. Would the badass anti-hero settle for steel knuckles to take out Steele? No! He'd go for an all-out slaughter. How about a moral crusader? Maybe you'd try and get Rage councelling (however you spell that) instead of throwing a teenager into Shiloh where he'd invariably make villain contacts and probably become crazier (just look at Arkhem!)

And perhaps the best idea I've heard in this topic... the quest pool. Not only does it keep the game from being repetitive, it gives the character much more room to grow from retcon to retcon. I mean, honestly, you're never going to beat the Mick if you keep reliving the same experiences over and over again.

As for skills and the Transmo...

I think you should be able to retcon in some ability that you had in your future self. Even if you then transmogrify your tali, your spirit is still tied to it. Think about it; super heroes get cool new abilities all the time (Spider Man's new suit, courtesy of Tony Stark, anyone?)

How about this: What if you had to go through a series of challenges, puzzles and battles to get to Mick. Once you got there you had to defeat him. Only after you beat him once, there would be a second stage of the fight! And after that, there would be a third stage. Only you wouldn't need to kill him a third time, instead you'd need some kind of special weapon with you that would stop all of his attacks and send them back at him. After the fight was over, some kind of portal would appear, and once you choosed to walk through it, you would go to some kind of place like heaven, only it would be really boring there. Then you'd go to some kind of hotel that allowed you to reincarnate. And you could choose what kind of hero you would want to be, and would be born as a new character. Now you wouldn't get all of your items back; instead, you'd only get to take a certain amount a day, say for instance 20, and they'd all be in some storage thing. I don't know, I'm just pulling this stuff out of my ass.

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TheK3vin- #325

http://soundcloud.com/thek3vin

I think the idea of the quest pool is the best thing said so far. Also, Mick has been set up well as a villain here. One of the few story complaints I have about kol is that the NS kind of comes out of left field. With some good writing, Mick could be an awesome adversary.

Okay, I was thinking, and I know this is a leap, but what if you die? Not ascend, not resurrect, die. It goes down like this, you've beaten the final boss, (by the way, I think he/she/it should also be a super-powered being, possibly working on the opposite side of the spectrum, naturalist vs. psion, you get the idea) you have him incapacitated, and can take him to rand at any time, thus preventing the end of the game until you are ready, however, when you click the button, the villain wakes up, and kills you. Here's where the fun begins, you take him out with one last burst of your super powers, e.g.. a elementalist opens up the Earth all the way to the core and the villain falls in.

Then, you die, but afterwards you see (this is my spin on it, names and such are unimportant, but it helps to get the concept across) Frank, the giant ethereal guardian of the universe and it's subsidiaries. think of him as The watcher from Marvel comics. Frank (who is a bunny) says that he's been "watching you" and that he feels you are worthy of reincarnation. he tells you that you can chose certain things about the person you want to be. My biggest idea, careers. careers would take a lot of work, because of what they do, but would raise replay value immensely. Each career relates to a class, Magician= elementialist, psychic= psion, professional athlete= naturalist, and engineer = gadgeteer. what careers do, is open up a second (and possibly third on the next reincarnation) tier of skills, and you can even increase difficulty by choosing the career opposite of your new class. Another idea, more classes, like a cliche character w/ laser vision & super strength, or an anti-hero, using powers that border on evil, such as shadows, and fear.

As for item carryover, What if you found a box alongside your talisman, I call it a "jigsaw box", because if you try to take more than five(?) items out in one night, it'll "cut your freakin' hand off". And skill carryover, I think an instruction manual coming along with the talisman would be good for a cheap laugh, but more important, the instructions would impart the number of skills decided upon. personally, I think one combat and one non-combat/passive would be a good idea, and when it's time to learn that skill, they just learn the skill for that level on the next tier.

These are just my ideas, please don't be too harsh, as I put a lot of time and thought in them, any constructive criticism would be much obliged.

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TheK3vin- #325

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Kinda digging up an old thread but this is one area of the game that will be important one day to introduce.

I like the concept of changes of paths after <insert name that isn't ascension here> to allow a different experience before perhaps doing it again. I was thinking that once a player <insert name that isn't ascension here>s that the amount of <insert name that isn't ascension here>s is the amount of levels that every enemy gets boosted by to make it more difficult on the next run through and consequently the ones after.
As for a method of <insert name that isn't ascension here>, I was thinking some epic battle with 'The Mick' where he has the equivalent of your character's stats (and boosts) but not equipment power. To make it more difficult he has the equivalent of having equipped 2 gold stars (i.e. 2 levels higher than your character).
After the fight (single, not multiple as it should be rather difficult) 'The Mick' is 'dead' and an option appears (under a series of text elaborating on his 'death' and the difficult struggle) of 'check if he is really dead' which has to be clicked in order to initiate the <insert name that isn't ascension here> phase.
After 'check if he is really dead' is selected, a block of text shows up saying that 'The Mick' was really dead but he re-animates as a result of a strain of infection (Left 4 Dead reference) that appears on his death. As a result the character gets horribly mangled to a point where even part of the character's brain gets taken away (knowledge of skills).
While 'The Mick's re-animated being is attacking the character, Officer Rand comes to the rescue and being a police officer arrests him and sends him off to jail (perhaps some kind of inspirational speech to your character that someone in a movie would give to someone in their dying moments) and he gets treated in the jail hospital (or whatever it is called). His infection gets cured and as a miracle he manages to be alive again. using the same treatment, your character gets cured of the infection (which gets passed onto you by the biting etc.) and also vigourous bodily reconstruction you manage to live again. After the procedure, the doctors/nurse tell you that they salvaged all the gear that you were wearing but couldn't fix your broken talisman. Also all the items in your inventory were salvaged except some items (i.e. quest items). They offer you 4 talismans which you are able to pick one of. And then you start again at level 1.

Hope this thread gets revived back to its former posting levels and keep the good ideas coming to inspire Ryme to make a truly awesome way of creating a(n) <insert name that isn't ascension here> method.

I had been mulling the idea over for awhile, and came up with something that might be nifty.

I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with the British comedy Red Dwarf, but it's a pretty hysterical sci-fi show about the last (known) living human being lost three million light-years away from Earth. He's got a few companions, but the only one that really matters to my scenario is named Rimmer.

Rimmer is a hologram, having died in an explosion and been brought back to keep the main character company. He's spiteful, narcissistic, cowardly, and full of himself. Later in the series they meet a living Rimmer from a parallel dimension named Ace Rimmer, who has become heroic and is heralded across dimensions for his good deeds. Rimmer loathes Ace Rimmer for being so superior to him, but at an even later date it is revealed that Ace is also a hologram, and is in fact only one in a long line of Ace Rimmers that has been acting as a dimensional hero. (by the way, I should mention that they are "hard-light" holographs- i.e., they can touch physical objects). Anyway, Ace is injured grieviously and his time is up, so he wants to recruit Rimmer. At first loathe to become heroic, he accepts his fate and takes Ace's place. They put Ace's holographic light source in a small "coffin" and launch it into space, where it joins millions of other such coffins in a ring around a planet.


I know that's a bit long, but if you read it, the concept could be used fabulously on Twilight Heroes. After all, we have a Dimensional Portal. What could happen is that after all quests are finished, an entry shows up in the journal stating how peaceful Twilight has been thanks to your work, and how out of place you now feel. If you go and talk to Susan Novak (or some other important character), they'll mention something along the lines of seeing someone that looked like you milling around the Dimensional Portal. If you go there it is a version of you BEFORE you became a hero, wounded and about to die. He or she laments that he had had enough and was about to deliver justice when he was brutally beaten and left for dead. They found a glowing object nearby, but when they picked it up it dragged them through a swirling hole in the fabric of reality to this place. They beg you to take the object and save their universe.
At this point you can still go around and do whatever you like during your current run, but in the end you'll take the glowing object, which could be "dimensional key" or something like that, and leap through the portal. A side-effect of the key would cause the majority of your experiences to be lost, but your items, some skills, and chips would remain. Talismans would also remain, but they would be locked in the dimensional key until certain requirements were met, and you would start the game again from right after when you WOULD have gotten beaten and found your first talisman, but your talisman is already equipped.

...phew, that was long-winded. Anyway, I put a lot of thought into it.

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Oh me oh my, signaturism.

In response to voice: Good idea! but I'd suggest it like this:

You meet the gravely injured version of you, and you give him your talisman. This causes you to... um... go away, but the injured version becomes a superhero, as if it were a time loop. Its a different you, ala KoL ascension, but you can narratively explain it as the same you, in a sense.

I had an idea a while back (that I forgot to post, but was reminded of by the above...) for ascension:

The Gist: The Mick is (effectively) unbeatable. When you lose your final showdown, you meet [entity] who tells you that your destiny is not to lose; unfortunately, the only only thing he can do is send your mind back to the moment you first put on a talisman, as that is the event that created the "ripple" in your destiny.

You get to keep your memories, but travelling through time completely disrupts your connection with your talisman; wiping out your hero powers.

Heroes who have successfully travelled back in time gain an additional power reserve, Chronometry Points (hereafter, CP).

Your number of trips back in time, as well as the options you choose before traveling determine both your max CP as well as how(often) you regain CP. i.e., your max CP might be equal to the number of times you've traveled through time, +0(Hardcore) to +10(Casual) and you would regain per rollover +0(Hardcore) to +10(Causal).

CP would be used to summon items from the alternate timeline (pulls from Hagnks, cost would be determined by your path) or could be used to power Chronometric skills which would only be available to heroes wearing a Chronometric talisman (it would add skills, not replace your class)

Wow, that's probably the best idea I have heard yet about ascension. The only issue is the lack of a feeling of accomplishment. There has to be one really satisfying moment that makes you kinda say "I have beaten this game, and can't wait to start over."

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TheK3vin- #325

http://soundcloud.com/thek3vin

Any of these work?

Novus Ortus
Repens Vita
Novus Vita


I agree with K3vin, that sounds pretty damn good and well thought out!

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I've won the 100k DD bet so many times, I should have the title "Mr. Luck"

Why Latin? I'm just sticking with "Retconscension" for now because people are calling it both.

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Chronometric Skills (to go with my above plan for retcon):

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Temporal Uppercut
Combat Skill, Cost: 1CP
You hit your opponent hard. I mean really hard. So hard you knock him into next week. Well, maybe not quite next week; more like an hour from now.

Effect: Combat ends. Any opponent you hit with a Temporal Uppercut will not appear in that zone for the next hour (approx 12 turns)

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Temporal Acceleration
Noncombat Skill (Self Only), Cost: 1CP, Duration: 120min (dismissable)

Tweaking your rate of movement through the time stream, you move really, really fast.

Effect1: Can't catch me!
You move so fast, your combat opponents can't keep up. Your opponent skips every other turn (as if they'd been successfully Stun Gassed); giving you two turns to their one every round.

Effect2: Burning the candle at both ends.
Moving really, really fast is really, really tiring. After each combat your bedtime is rolled back by [currentTimePerTurn].

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so since you've already said in the transmogrifier that there's a VERY GOOD CHANCE you'll llose all your powers, why not give a chance of keeping one of them every time you transmogrify, with the chance of keeping increasing per level (so that people can't just spam transmogrify), so that eventually all the skills are gettable?

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KOL much? Actually I don't think that would be a good idea. The individual class skills make it much more enjoyable to choose your class, and maybe make a few friends of different classes.

Yeah, but transmogrifying is sorta boring, you know?

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Transmogrification was originally a way for alpha testers to work over the classes without making 4 accounts. It's stuck around, and it's a play style people enjoy, but it was never intended to be TH's version of ascension. And the "very good chance" line was added because people were shocked they lost their powers. It was trying to be more subtle than "You'll lose every skill except passable pilot and heroic efficiency, so don't send bug reports when you lose all your skills, XP, stats, HP and PP".

I'd still like to be able to perm a skill each retcon. It would spur me on to retcon more often, could be part of a new badge even.

Yeah, I agree there. I mean sure, being able to carry over all your items or chips or whatever is nice (I'd definitely hate to lose items over skills) but keeping skills would make for interesting class combinations.

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Oh me oh my, signaturism.

I am so against possibly losing my IOTMs that I've almost wrapped around to the other side

My thought for that is to have IotM excluded runs. Makes for a far easier-to-reach levelled playing field.

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I'd like to see that as well, in addition to casual, normal, and hardcore-esque retconscensions.

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TheK3vin- #325

http://soundcloud.com/thek3vin

Could you go a little more in-depth on that idea?

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Oh me oh my, signaturism.

There isn't any depth. Just have an option to exclude the use of IotM and IotM related items (e.g. Recyclonizer), purely for gameplay balance.

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Ah, I see what you meant. I was a little confused at first; I thought you meant have an option as to whether you got to retain your IoTM at all. I was like "@_@ who would choose to LOSE them?"

Yeah, it would be an interesting challenge, especially to older players that are so used to using them from always having them.

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Yeah. Maybe I shouldn't post gameplay stuff in here. >.>

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As KOL-eque as it might be I think the idea of keeping a skill is a solid one and allows you to customize your character and also offers more incentives for people to keep playing.

What I thought might be cool is build on the warning sentance about the transmogrifier so taht there is a CHANCE you keep a skill. Make the chance a percentage equal to your level -50. This way a level 150 character has a 100% chance of keeping a skill.

Just a thought

Not sure if I should start a new thread or just continue this one, but I keep thinking about ascension/retcon/whatever, and I think it's something that needs to become part of the game sooner rather than later to keep Twilight vital. I think people run through the current content too quickly, and run out of things to do too quickly, and with something like retconscension I would hope we could keep more people around longer.

I absolutely hate to give deadlines, especially in public, because I'm pretty likely to not make them. But this is the sort of thing that I'd like to see complete before the second anniversary of the game. Giving myself some breathing room, that means I need to get most of the things in line within, say, six months.

So the real question is, what does it really take to have retcon working?

1) Level 10 and 11 quest at minimum, because they tell most of the story I want to tell.

2) I've got glimmerings of levels 12-16 quests, which is where I really want it to end, but I'm not sure if I've got enough time for them. Of course not doing them now and trying to add them later may come with its own troubles.

3) Decisions about several ascensiony factors, including
a) types of runs: softcore, hardcore, casual, no-IotM? Bad moon equivalent where no permed skills are a factor? Is there a more truly level playing field we could pick? Are there mechanics other than "the pull" for softcore alternatives?

b) skill perming. I think this is one of the most appealing factors of KoL, so I'll absolutely have it in some fashion, but there's room for variety. For instance, do all skills need to be permable? Can some be specific to a class and never permed? Should there be extra skills that aren't class specific? This is also obviously affected greatly by the ascension choices: if there's no hardcore, say, or no softcore, then we might not have two levels of perming. Or could there be three levels if there's some other option out there? Or a way to play a run without accessing permed skills that's not like Bad Moon, to remember how a vanilla character works?

c) Ways to introduce variety into successive runs. I think reputation will be one of these--in a fast run there won't necessarily be freedom to switch back and forth easily, and this can be expanded, maybe even be a factor in a quest. Still, there's room for other options. Choices in quests which determine options in later quests. Multiple rewards for quests, depending on how they're solved. Stuff like that. There might be an obvious parallel between the teet/booze/oxy paths and KoL, but are they really interesting, and is that worth copying? What about a no-sidekick run? Or restrictions on transportation? What else might be interesting?

d) Possibly reconsidering how sidekicks work. There seems to be a general dissatisfaction with the current method of having them as special buffs, and a lot of requests for more permanent options. I've been fighting it, but if I'm going to mess with this mechanic it should be before retcon is an option.

e) Leaderboards. What would really compel people to compete? Most basic is total number of retcons, and speed (in terms of minutes rather than turns, probably) for a run. I suppose broken down by paths, if we do that. Lifetime stats? Lifetime PvP (which needs its own improvements, clearly)?

4) Consider what else might be needed in the game to make it work. Some possibilities:

a) Leagues (or clans, or guilds, or whatever). Not really required for retcon itself, but it's a popular request, and gives some leaderboard angles.

b) revamps to some of the existing quests. Level 9 needs more content. Level 5 (casino) might be too long. Level 3 (Mind Bender) might be too trivial upon repetition, as is just about any riddle.

c) More holidays? I know holidays are fun on their own. The ones that currently exist would mostly interfere with a run, rather than enhance one. Do we need some that are more predictable and/or more limited in scope that might add to strategy? Or is it better if they're unpredictable and disassociated from retcon-style play?

d) Add a few more skills to fill in the gaps.

What else is really necessary to make replayability work? Or what could serve to improve the experience upon replaying the same basic set of events for dozens of times?

Mostly I'm just talking out loud here. I make no guarantees of including anything suggested here, and I admit a lot of decisions will probably be made on my own, or behind closed doors with some testers. Still, other than the one example of another game that happens to do this very well, there's nearly a wide-open range of options for how this could work, and I'm sure some players will have some interesting suggestions.

At the most basic, I'm committed to the idea of being able to replay the quests, and within that guideline I think it's really only compelling if there's some means of improving your character with each attempt at a replay. Beyond that, anything could work.

I think you have the basic ideas down, it just actuall implimenting them all.

I definately think you should make the asension around level 18-20... give the hero some time to bask in the "Super-Hero"-esque glory before choosing to ascend or not.

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I've won the 100k DD bet so many times, I should have the title "Mr. Luck"

There's also the option of allowing ascension as early as say L12, but still having quests through L20 which might have lasting impact.

I've been chatting with MagiNinja about possibilities for a more "modular" ascension model, where choosing things like pulls/no-pulls, access to permed skills and even things like how long "ronin" lasts might all be independent choices that could all have independent impacts on your "ascension rewards".



What if some skills, particularly higher-level and/or more "valuable" skills were somehow "harder" or "more expensive" to perm rather than being impossible?



I think there are definately options that are more interesting than "sugarfree" or "caffeine free" runs. For example, for the masochistic, what about a "powerless" run, where your PP can never rise above 0?

No sidekick is potentially interesting, but I suspect that classes that can't summon a sidekick will spend most of a run without a sidekick anyway, so I'm not sure how restricting it really is.



There is another option that doesn't require replacing the current system entirely. Currently there are consumable items that summon sidekicks. That leaves plenty of room for:

a) Items that are reusable at-will to re/summon a sidekick,
a.1) Reusable items that have some other cost:
a.1.1) Like a mech sidekick that consumes gear every time it's activated
a.1.2) Or a spirit sidekick totem that needs to be fed PP to summon a sidekick.
c) Items that are reusable N times/day to summon a sidekick,

On the subject of modular effects on rewards, I was thinking the same thing. Have ratings for each 'module' difficulty setting, add them all up at the end and have ranges which determine rewards.

I quite like this, actually. It reminds me of that site you can do ascension searches by specific criteria. But this would have ingame support, so you can be on the top of the caffeine-fee 5-skill 40-pull 300-turn-ronin Psion run leaderboard! :/
Actually, maybe something like each restriction having a point value?

Gadgeteers, FTW!

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You mean like what I just posted? >.>

You mean like what you just ninja'd me with?

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Well, I've got a hat!

And then have boards for different point values. I like.

I also like what CS said about having quests through 18-20, so your character really turns into a 'Super Hero'....

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That may draw out runs too much, but as an optional thing, it'd be interesting.

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