Twilight Forums

Because this is a New Thing (TM), I figured it would probably be good to explain it a little so everyone knows what they're getting into if they decide to purchase one.

Like the description says, it gives you a permanent skill on use. The skill costs 20PP to use, but spending skill points will reduce that cost.

The skill can be used once per day. Sort of. Here's how it works:

Using the skill allows you to summon a piece of equipment. There are several different pieces to choose from; however, getting what you want isn't guaranteed. Each piece has a chance and every casting you do (at the same time) counts as a roll. Extra PP from unused "rolls" isn't returned. Example:

I cast it once, spending 20PP, I get one roll to get the item I want.
I cast it 10 times, spending 200PP (all at once), I get 10 rolls to get the item I want. If I get the item in those ten rolls, hooray. If not, the item I rolled on the 10th roll is what I end up with.

Regardless of what item you end up with, it counts as "rental gear", which means you have it for that day only; at rollover, it goes poof. It also can't be autosold, traded, put in a memento case, etc. Also, the summoned items have the same restrictions as any other IotM gear: it can't be used in no-pull runs.

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The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone
--October Project: "Dark Time"

Thanks, Cristiona.

Yup, it summons a range of IotM-esque rental items. If you have your heart set on one, call in multiple times. Otherwise, just spin the wheel

Cheers!
Kinak

Ah I see. "Better chance to get what you want the more times you cast it" could mean several different things, so I am glad to see clarification.

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I'm not a huge fan of the "all at once" aspect of this mechanic. I don't think that will make day 1 any easier. It would be cool if there was a way to throw mp at the skill to build up a pool and then cast it so you could ensure you have enough casts to not get something crappy.

After you roll for the item you want does it prompt you to accept that item or is this like a foldable with a limited number of folds? I'm wondering if you could throw a ton of mp at this thing and switch which item you have throughout a day's turns.

I love the flavor of this item. Keep up the good work

Well, it's a good thing we didn't put a bunch of crappy things in there then

Barring having an IotM for that slot already, I wouldn't be sad to see any of those results day 1 for 20 PP.

No. You get one delivery a day.

In it's basic form, the skill summons a sweet rental item once a day for 20 PP. If you really have your heart set on one result in particular, you can invest more PP to get what you want. That's all that's going on.

Thanks

Cheers!
Kinak

I'd just like to say I think this is an intrinsically bad design, atleast for my playstyle. Each item is a bit subpar to an actual IotM. Further spading will be required to say just how bad a design it is, but basically, spend 20 PP (or whatever after skill points) and there is X% chance you'll get something that you want, with the rest of the chance being you get something that might benefit you somewhat less or you get something that's useless to you. So basically there's a chance that, if you spend PP, you end up with something useless to you at the moment. That just doesn't sound promising. The more times you cast it, the better chance you have, but apparently it's not 100% chance. And as far as day 1 usefulness goes, depending on your class and other equipment, you may not have 40 or 60 PP to spend, certainly not 200 PP. But I don't know how useful extra casts are. Further, atleast during a run, the skill points thing will be useless. I don't know why anyone would spend their skill points on this instead of incredibly useful healing spells or +time skills or what have you. So more or less this item is most useful after you've got skill points to spare in a run. And even at this point, there's still a chance you won't get what you want after spending a ton of PP. There are plenty of IotM's which can be changed at will, or based on level requirements, or have a predictable pattern of changing. But random is probably not a good choice with once a day rental equipment. Random may not ever be a good choice with an equipment IotM. I guess what I'm saying is, no one's going to get excited because they get a random item that may or may not benefit them, compared to all the rest of the IotMs which at the very least you know what the benefit will be to you every time you want to use it. Needless to say I don't think this one will sell that well. Just my honest opinion. I bought one anyways, because I buy atleast one of all the IotM's, but I doubt I'll ever use this one. If I were to submit a possible method of improvement, I'd say allow the chance to re-roll. I'd be pretty upset if I spent all of my PP trying to get a certain item and got a different one instead that I'm stuck with the entire day. I'd be less upset if later on in the day when I had more PP I could re-roll to turn the useless one into the one I wanted. Of course I'd be /really/ upset if it happened twice in a row that I got a useless item. But meh. Like I said, I won't be using this particular IotM regardless.

_________________
Leader of PFE league. If you wish to worship me, ask me about joining my secondary league Cult of Satan (the largest league in the game!).

Gee, thanks.

_________________

The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone
--October Project: "Dark Time"

Well, it might not be as bad I'm inclined to think it is. I doubt it's worse than I think it is, so it can only go up from there!

_________________
Leader of PFE league. If you wish to worship me, ask me about joining my secondary league Cult of Satan (the largest league in the game!).

If you are doing any run with pull limitations, minus no-pull, this iotm is awesome. You must not have looked at it closely or else you really don't know how to play this game. Even in all items there is nothing that competes with the multiversal gong for that slot. I'm really not sure at which iotm you're looking at but I think you are mistaken in your assessment of this iotm's power.

As for the random aspect, I sort of agree with you. I think I would like to see a way to have a little bit more control over what you get. Day 1 I think you end up summoning this whenever you can get 20 pp, which is kind of sad because if you get something that really doesn't compete with your equivalent iotm for that slot then you don't get a use out of this skill at all. If you have no intention of allowing for PP pooling maybe split the skill up like upgrade weapons so you only have to reroll for 2 or 3 items instead of all 7.

/end 2 cents

I can only say that I am a bit sad I won't be able to utilize this in runs where it would most help me.

All items available - pray for gong?
No pulls - no use.
In between - I would like to summon before pulling (so that I can shuffle my pulls according to what I get), but I don't have 20PP or skill points before pulling or playing turns; there's some strategical/tactical deciding here ... but then again - who needs the extra mettle?

Also, gong competes with black box.

Other than that, interesting mechanic, between kol's old tomes (snow, stickers) and new tomes (sugar, clip art).
I can see how the "call X times" mechanisc molds better to a skill than a free-pull usable item.


Aside: if each roll is flat d6 and you want just 1, and want to be 99% certain you get it ...
1-(5/6)^N=0.99
N=log(0.01)/log(5/6)=25 calls

That's some customer satisfaction right there ... -<8E[-[

I've been summoning the Gong for the last 3 days. I do 6 casts, and usually get the Gong on the 3rd or 4th call. So yeah, you may not have a 100% chance at getting the item you want. But I'd say the chances are almost perfect if you can do half a dozen or more casts.

If it's the beginning of a run and you get "stuck" with one of the other items, I'd be perfectly happy with that. The only one I'd probably not use in a run is the Hammer, only because I'm usually needing ranged more than melee.

In the future, everyone, could you try to start with this?

"I was looking forward to IotM skills, but I wish this one was more useful in retcons without item restrictions" is a legitimate point. It gives us something to consider as we design the next skill.

On the other hand, jumping in fists-swinging with "bad design" won't get you anything other than an argument. And if you "win" the argument... it still just gives us something to consider as we design the next skill.

And, in general, for anyone who hasn't heard me discuss this before:
The design team are people. The energy and emotion that gets invested in arguments costs us. A real throw-down will set development back days or, in the worst cases, weeks. If there's a situation where being adversarial helps these games, I've yet to see it.

Thanks!
Kinak

The latter part of that is what I was going for. I'm not trying to hurt people's feelings. I'm just stating my opinion- I think it'd be better to stay away from designs like these in the future, and stated my reasons for doing so. It was meant to be constructive criticism. I don't consider "bad design" to be fists-swinging, especially considering I followed it up with my reasons and a possible improvement, but I'll be more careful with my wording in the future.


I rarely do runs with pull limitations these days. But if I were to do so, the aegis shield wins out over gong for the offhand for me. I have enough -time gear from other IotMs to cover it. Granted, most people don't, so I see your point.


That seems somewhat more reasonable than what I was thinking it'd be.

_________________
Leader of PFE league. If you wish to worship me, ask me about joining my secondary league Cult of Satan (the largest league in the game!).

I appreciate it

While we're in constructive-criticism land, you probably want to lead with what you actually object to and break stuff into paragraphs. The first couple sentences always set the tone and, in a giant block, it's even harder to skip to the meat of the issue.

As far as "bad design," would you go to a painter's gallery and lead with "I think this is an intrinsically bad painting?" I might... if I was trolling them. It offers no more information than "I don't like this" while simultaneously inviting argument about the nature of the field, dismissing the time they put into their work, and implying that you are so far above them in their chosen field that you can determine whether their ideas are even salvageable.

If you didn't mean any of those things, that's fine. But it's how your introduction came across to the person you were trying to communicate to. And I can't give your ideas a fair shake if I'm on the defensive before I even get to them.

Cheers!
Kinak

I would totally say that at an art gallery. If I were to ever go to an art gallery. But I hate art.

_________________
Leader of PFE league. If you wish to worship me, ask me about joining my secondary league Cult of Satan (the largest league in the game!).

Alright, that's kind of awesome.

Thanks again for reconsidering that approach leaving feedback here then.

Cheers!
Kinak

People regularly use the black box, still? I think I'd take -10seconds before the box. Of course, I've got precompletion pro and get around 8 SP per level, so my views may be skewed.

Also, the gong is good post-retcon too. I'd use it in my 50-100 run, but I'm not using IotM for this.

_________________

The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone
--October Project: "Dark Time"

I had been wondering if the IOTM was ever a permed skill and was delighted to see that this one was exactly that. For my first day with the skill, I summoned a HUD helmet and got it, so bonus, although a surprise would have been fine, they all look like interesting, useful objects. A bit of flexibility in your approach to life, makes life a lot more fun, demanding things always be just your way can get pretty wearing on both your body and those around you.

I can relate to the people that don't like paying for something and then having to deal with random mechanics, might seem a bit unfair. Since I'm high level atm pp cost isn't a problem, but it will when I (eventually ) retcon, and lets not kid ourselves about it, the gong is the shining star of this month's iotm and will be the most sought after.

I dunno how the odds work yet, but if they are even maybe make it so that the thing we ask for has double (or at least a relatively higher chance) than all the other individual outcomes? (25% against 5*15% for example =P)

I suppose that would appease all bothered parties without compromising the mechanics too much

The one you ask for does have a higher percentage.

As for the gong being the shining star it depends a lot on play style, availability of items, goals, and a lot of other factors. I use the gong right now only because it lets me also wear the subscriber's jacket for the vouchers. If not for that, I'd probably shoot for one of the weapons or the HUD for the xp.

It does? Good to know, maybe if that had been advertised there wouldn't be so much complaining

The other items are nice and the weapons look great, but players who buy iotm usually already have a stash, and in my stash I have the Axe Hero as well as better options for the other slots so the Gong is really the best at day 1 of a run.

Pity it wasn't thought of when conceiving the item, but it'd be fun (even narratively) if when you get an item you didn't ask for they'd also include a consumable (as some kind of compensation lol) that would cast and effect that slightly boots the chances of the brainwaves getting to them when in effect (would have to be used the next day before using the skill, like sugar purifier before consuming sugar items).

Just being a trouble maker here now... but randomness of this IotM is a bad thing, but you like the Axe hero guitar

I can equip the axe hero guitar whenever I want to.
I can equip the gong (for example) depending on my luck.

The randomness in the axe's effects always brings something useful.
The randomness in the catalog may bring me something I won't have an use to at the time because I already had better for that slot.

Both were paid for.

Is there any need for further clarifications on what some people don't like about in this iotm's mechanics?

Glad you're enjoying it

Heh. Trouble maker or not, you touch on an important point. Variance always plays better than it reads. It's just the nature of the beast.

So, by the time another skill like this rolls around, we'll know how it actually plays and will be able to make the necessary adjustments. So far, it seems to be hitting about the right notes, as strange as it may sound to say that in this thread.

I dunno, I'm sure there are some folks here who've never had this conversation before. It's one of the big ones, so it wouldn't surprise me if somebody wanted another couple go-rounds.

Man, I remember the first time I had this conversation *wiggily lines* It was back in the 90s, when we first heard about Magic: the Gathering implementing their four-copies limit on deck building. Ah, those were the days, when my biggest concerns were that night's plothooks for D&D and trying to convince Herr Lesczynski to let us play games in German class *wiggily lines*

Okay now I feel old... and like I need to read some Spelljammer boxed sets

Cheers!
Kinak

I think the catalog is a neat (item, object, nuance) thing.
I do exclusively 5-pull runs, which means that I am guaranteed not to have an item for every slot on day one. If I use this first, then I can supplement my pulls appropriately.

While I admittedly have not used it as much as I would like, I find this IotM more enjoyable than some others I have purchased.

Very few (if any) of the IotMs have been perfect *for me*, so I don't really have any complaints here. I think it is a neat idea. I think it is totally optional. I think I can't wait to see what is in store for us next month, at which time I will invariably pay my $20 monthly membership fee.

Normally I wouldn't voice an opinion here, but this thread seemed a little heated, and I thought it important to voice my opinion.

EDIT:



Only a shade older than me, pal. But at least you aren't reminded of your age with each new semester's worth of students!