Twilight Forums

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but I tried searching and I don't feel like looking through a hundred pages to check.

Alright, so I have only been playing for a few days, and I really enjoy it. But something bugs me, and thats leveling up.

I don't mean the way you level up, thats cool, a traditional RPG system where you get your stats at the point of the level up is a good thing. The thing that bugs me is the cost.

It's not that I mind paying, no thats understandable, it's like taking martial arts, you have to pay the instructor. Now the first few are fairly cheap, and you can make your enough money just patrolling, but I am currently at level 6, and can't afford level 7.

This isn't a new thing, level 6 I had to gamble to get enough chips and same with level 5. And I know its not just me, I see the complaints of people who need about a thousand chips to level up and it bothers me, the places I can patrol offer enough stats to level up, but the chips are nowhere to be found. Well, the casino provides the chips, but even that takes a long time after a few levels.

And I can't afford to buy anything otherwise I can't afford the training.

It's feeling like experience isn't leveling you up, but money.

So here are some suggestions to make it easier:

1. Have one day of the week be payday, I have a job, why not have it give me some money, not a lot, I have bills to pay, but l should have a little bit left over.

2. Lower training costs. Not drastically, but a little bit, like a couple hundred.

3. Increase chip drops or autosell values. A little bit more money in the pocket would help, and let people buy things other than levels.

Thank you for reading and I hope it's taken into consideration.

I concur with the above post in just about every way.

1. This would break the game in so many ways. Let's just assume your job exactly pays the bills and rent, with nothing left over, okay?

2. Already been done once in the past, but could be taken into consideration again. Anybody else feel this is a problem?

3. See 2), except it hasn't been done before, to the best of my knowledge.

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Have a nice day.

Well, after discovering a certain place, I think the protesters should have a bit more coin on them, maybe a bonus of ten more than they currently have?

After adventuring around in the casino, I've found that is a great place to get chips, and balances things out a bit. So really, I jumped the gun agreeing. I disagree with point one now.

Yeah, the narrative justification on paydays was that you pretty much made just enough to make ends meet with nothing left over. The Casino is indeed a good place for cash, especially when you consider the non-combat. The other option is to sell off the items you stumble upon. Some areas allow you to raise a hefty amount of loot that way. Also, don't forget about the auction house. A short auction and/or a buy-out price can get you some quick chips.

Still, while games are about resource management, part of the point of Beta is to work out the kinks. Once the lag issues are resolved (and probably once chat is upgraded), I'm sure this will be looked at. Not promising anything will change; just that it will certainly be considered.

As for point three: again, this is still Beta (first week of it, no less). Autosale and drop rates may be adjusted. In the short term, there are a few items you can find and purchase that increase chip and item drop rates.

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The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone
--October Project: "Dark Time"

I'm actualy a level 6 trying to get to lvl 7 too, this level feels particularly expensive.

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TheK3vin- #325

http://soundcloud.com/thek3vin

It seems that many people have trouble with level 6?

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Have a nice day.

Personally I think the resource management imposed by the seemingly high leveling costs is a good thing. There is no rule saying you have to level up the very moment you are able to do so either. Similar to how in KoL your first few runs through the game you are not always able to kill off the monsters in the new quests. A brand new player is not taking on the Bonerdagon successfully the moment s/he hits level 7. In the same vein, you may not be paying off your trainer the moment you have enough XP to level up.

Choices are good, and just because you're being given a tough choice does not make it bad.

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The Devirginizer #90

I agree on points 2 and 3.
Currently:
Exp gain > chip gain
If it was
Exp >= Chip
the current prices would be ok, but the exp outgains are too much to deal with.

Though I agree with that philosophy in general j12601, it really seems like the cost to go to level 7 spikes up after 6. I don't know why, it just does. I was able to (almost) immediately level up every other time.

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TheK3vin- #325

http://soundcloud.com/thek3vin

What Cristiona says is almost exactly what I was going to say. I'm definitely listening to these things and do want to make sure that the balance is good. I want you to have to make choices about how to spend your budget, but I don't want you to be destitute, so I'm cautiously trying to land somewhere in between. I'll be keeping an eye on this stuff, for sure.

Also keep in mind the level 5 quest hasn't been put into the game yet, and when it is there will be some reward there. And the level 6 quest gives you a choices between a weapon and financial gain. For those folks who are saying level 7 is particularly tough: did you take the weapon or the money?

I'm also really curious to see how things go in the auction house. I would think that there ought to be items which new players can farm and sell at auction for some chips to more established players. It's going to take a few weeks for that to settle down, though.

I'm in the same boat, and I'm glad someone brought it up. Currently sitting at level 6, ready to level up to level 7, and don't have the chips necessary to do so. I haven't finished the level 6 quest to take "money or weapon" because I spent some time trying to find computer parts instead of diving right into the quest.

Choices for resource spending are interesting, but it seems like the chip costs right now are really high. The last couple levels I needed to sell stuff/farm just to level up, but was able to do so relatively soon after hitting the exp requirement.

However, this still means I was using a large percentage of my available resources just to gain a level. I'd suggest trying to fix the chip requirement at a lower average percentage of a character's resources. Maybe that's done by lowering costs, maybe it's done by increasing drop rates. When so many people are finding that it takes close to 100% of their resources to level up, that's not fun gameplay.

Farming != interesting content. Making me farm to advance is somewhat annoying.

I don't really think this is at all a "tough choice" with regards to resource management either. What choice do I have to level up or not? How is the game interesting at all if i choose to ignore leveling up? Sure, I can ignore it for a while and wait until the point where leveling up is not as much a portion of my resources, but again, I'd say that for your average player, that's simply not a very satisfying answer at all. Once someone hits that wall where they either farm for a while in places they've already seen or they become disinterested in the game, I'd wager the casual people are going to wander off to some other game.

I hear ya. I really do. However, right now the average percentage of a character's resources is still an unknown number, so I can't really use that as a gauge of anything. Given a few weeks, it will probably become clearer, and I'll make some appropriate adjustments if that still seems necessary.

That's totally understandable and expected really. Which is pretty much why i wanted to chime in and give another voice of "this is my experience" and hopefully help with that calculation a bit.

Given that you don't need to level up immediately (like, you can go on gaining exp and completing quests right up until you're nearly the next level as well) I think the chip costs are fine.

Actually, that's what drew me in about this game - the fact levelling up isn't a passive process to wait for but one you have to prepare and plan for.

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out-out the lights-out all! and over each quivering form
the curtain, a funeral pall, comes down with the rush of a storm
and the angels all pallid and wan, uprising unveiling affirm
that the play is the tragedy man, and its hero the Conqueror Worm.

Glad to see this thread. I have hit this problem at level 4 (trying to train for lvl 5). If most others are having this problem at level 6, then that's about par for the way I usually play. (I tend to overbuy equipment when I start out, instead of just letting it drop.)

Who knew about the casinos, though? I usually assume that casinos are currency sinks, not income generators I'll check that out.

Yeah, it'll take several weeks to figure out this one. There are too many variables for an easy answer!

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"I don't have enough time to do all the procrastinating I want to."--Littleghost, in chat

The casino is good, perhaps too good for money. I have not experienced the same issues with leveling up. I had trouble at level 3 but then I was saving up several thousand chips first. After that, though, acquiring funds was not a problem. I was able to defeat stronger enemies who gave more chips. The fact I could not make a level in a single night and receive immediate gratification (odd because I went for delayed gratification which is what caused my troubles to begin with) did not deter me. I don't think we're all supposed to be level 50 after our first or second day. Spending time working for things is fine by me. Of course, I'm from the old generation of online gamers, back when java was new, server reboots and maintenance took hours, not minutes, EQ was being advertised in Inquest (before it was inquest gamer) etc, etc. I'm used to waiting and working hard for reward. Besides, restricted funds and making people choose between leveling or getting equipment creates a nice market and more varied players. Someone might spend their funds working towards getting their first or second computer. Another might focus exclusively on leveling while someone else is using their cash to buy equipment.

My only REAL gripe about the system is that there IS an imbalance, at least in the early levels, with experience to chips. Chips are infinitely more valuable and the experience seems worthless. Because you need both to level and chips are rare while exp is common, the exp to make your level is always acquired long before the chips to afford it are in place. In multiple instances I have had the experience for two levels and not enough chips for one.

Even recently I had the exp to reach level 7 when I was level 5.
At level 3 I nearly had enough experience to be level 6.

I found, and still find, myself upset when facing a monster that gives only exp as a reward. I found myself ignoring exp in quest rewards and focusing exclusively on any items and chips gained. Money is, tight. Alright, let's make exp do more than add up. Use it to purchase skills for example....>=)

Leave the text effects alone unless they're useful to make a point. Like this mod edit. -Icy

Okay, after fumbling around and making every stupid mistake in the book, I finally figured out the casino. I now have no complaints whatsoever about our ability to fund our training.

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"I don't have enough time to do all the procrastinating I want to."--Littleghost, in chat

Early funding seems to be pretty tight to me. Two major things have cleared up the money situation for me. Level 4, where as a gadgeteer I learned a self-healing skill, and level 5, where I was able to handle the casino without it being a drain on my resources (PP, chips). First Aid, combined with the PP regeneration from the Superhero Cape, meant that I didn't have to spend money healing at the hospital or spend time resting at my hideout, at least not as much. I could be out patrolling and actually increasing my funds. With the casino, the income potential became that much greater, and my financial worries were no longer so pressing.

However, consider the new player that hasn't reached the casino yet, or doesn't have automatic PP regeneration, or has no healing that doesn't cost chips. Before I got those, I was worrying that I had hamstrung my development when I equipped myself early on, because I was consistently behind by about a level for my training. I was spending most of a level just farming money to pay for the training for that level. By the time I could afford to pay for training, I was almost qualified for the next level, which made me want to go right back to farming money and pinching pennies, rather than buying a welding torch to experiment with tinkering, or computer parts to see what I could put together. I wasn't feeling like much of a gadgeteer.

Glad to hear that Ryme is keeping an eye on this. I hope my input will be useful, and thanks for letting us into your sandbox!

I've started 3 alts in this past week and I really like the fact that you need chips to level up. Like others have stated, it allows for more individual character development. If you want to spend all your chips on the coolest gear then you won't be able to race the people trying to level up the fastest and vice versa. The 2 alts I play the most have reached levels 7 and 8 without too much trouble, generally having the chips needed before or just after I've gained enough exp to level up while still having chips for caffeine and a few eq items. Also the items that increase chip/drop rates make a big difference, again allowing you to either equip items that will make you be a big bad killer or a farmer. I have yet to reach the exp needed and not been able to afford the chip cost leveling for more then a day.

I'll chime in here and say that I also like the choices that come along with asset management and levelling up.

I think I too hit a roadblock around 5/6, lookng for chips - but that was more because I was exploring content, and not managing resources at the time. I have no doubt that if I had been paying attention, training costs would have hardly been an issue.

I would in fact, argue for increased training costs, at all levels - that is, when all the quests are implemented. Increased, that is, until you finish the quest for that level, at which point you get a break in the price, back to where they are now or even slightly lower.

I spent all of level 5 farming in the casino, and wound up short of level 6 by more than half the chips I needed. You might as well abolish exp if training prices are going to stay this steep. I haven't spent any of my chips on anything since making an account, autosold almost everything, and it always takes me a while to scrounge up the chips for a level.

Yet again, you don't need to train exactly when you have enough experience to do so.

_________________
out-out the lights-out all! and over each quivering form
the curtain, a funeral pall, comes down with the rush of a storm
and the angels all pallid and wan, uprising unveiling affirm
that the play is the tragedy man, and its hero the Conqueror Worm.

I don't really see how it's bothersome at those levels to level up. I had no more than 20 turns of trouble going from level 5 to 6, but again after that I found a better chip farming place. As well, the meat reward from the level 6 quest is pretty useful, and I believe that alone pays for a level.

Maybe part of the problem has been the lag. I know this sounds odd, but looking back at how long it took me to get from 6 to 7, it probably wasn't more than 20-30 turns of farming. But when each turn takes like, a minute, the problem seems to become a lot worse.

And whats with the green neo?

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TheK3vin- #325

http://soundcloud.com/thek3vin

Just playing around

That's my challenge since completing the level 9 quest.

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"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." - S. K.

The reason for the enormous exp/chips difference at level 4->5 (the critical spot for most people, since l4 is too low to reliably farm the casino) comes from the fact that the L4 quest mobs drop, with few exceptions, no chips. And the items they do drop have an autosale value that is neglegible, to boot.

What do you fine fellows suggest to fix this?

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"The world of madness is a lot bigger than the world of sane."

Cornuthaum, #1234

Adventure elsewhere and sacrifice XP for chips? I believe you can make a reasonable income from the Tavern or in the Sewers. Also, those monsters will drop items that you can sell.

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The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone
--October Project: "Dark Time"

I farmed the casino unreliably

Yeah, being an elementalist helped, somehow.

_________________
out-out the lights-out all! and over each quivering form
the curtain, a funeral pall, comes down with the rush of a storm
and the angels all pallid and wan, uprising unveiling affirm
that the play is the tragedy man, and its hero the Conqueror Worm.

I'm not exactly playing the game optimally or anything, but at level 8 or 9 (I think, the game's down right now) I've always had the chips to pay for training before I leveled. Level 5/6 wasn't any more of a challenge than any other level.

So, there's another data point.

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Alexander Cherry
Twisted Confessions

Now you see, I happen to think that the amount of chips needed is very reasonable, and I do not want it changed at all.

Sure, maybe I was a bit short of the cash for a couple levels' of training, but at other times I've been short of the XP when I've had the chips. I'm now level 10, but I have 14k chips, and I've only just paid for the training. Getting chips is all about knowing where to patrol and at what points, so it's fairly simple really.

Or if you think of it another way, think of it like this: There are just two types of experience used to level up, and you need to fulfil both the criteria in order to be able to train a level. You wouldn't complain if it took the same amount of time to level as it does now, only with higher XP brackets and lower chips, so why complain now? I think it's a perfect system for this game.

It would be nicer if items had an increased autosell value. Right now, autosell is like a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of things and the amount of chips you collect.

Also, though this is an (inevitable) comparison to KoL, the leveling system feels rather restrictive. Instead of being able to scrape by in a tough area while you level up, areas are pretty solidly "can-or-cannot survive in".

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Sleep lightly, for fear that The Slumberjack will catch you in your dreams.
There are some that call me... TechSmurf

Well no, not really. I was talking to a level 8 today, and he said he was patrolling through the Gate. Admittedly, he said he had to heal every 4 or 5 turns, but it certainly seems to me as though he was 'scraping by', rather than just 'not surviving'.

Add more of the "I got no idea what I'm really doing" than the "playing optimally" and I've still found that I have had almost zero worry about coinage.

Currently level 7 and I have enough to pay for my next 2 levels if desired, though I'm just going to keep tinkering about, no rush. My tinkering may have been spent item farming ~cough~

Auction House people!

I too felt that, but I found as I progressed the game opened up more.

I've found that different classes have harder times leveling up. I had to spend much less turns resting because Gadgeteers can heal themselves. A Naturalist though has to use much more time in the earlier levels resting in their hideout. Couple that with the fact that other classes take more damage per turn than others, and you've got a good chunk of time spent not winning chips.

In the defense of naturalists, I did spend a lot of time in my hide out resting, but once affordable (or at least moderately affordable) healing items get implemented and hit the auction block, we'll be better off. I've had chips to spare ever sense I picked up Snout of the Swine; I've hardly had to auto-sell or auction items since, if leveling was my only goal.

With a chips surplus + affordable healing item, we'll be able to spend more of our money on HP restoration that can replace basic resting.

It stinks in the early levels scraping chips together, but I really think it evens out around level 7 or so. Earlier, maybe, if you futz around with auctions.

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Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
"By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe."