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 Post subject: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:32 pm 
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We're getting some new and some returning players asking about Retcon and the 'optimal' order to perm skills.

Since some of you have put in quite a few runs you might have an opinion on the matter. Keep in mind perm order might different from P vs NP runs.

Here's my stab at a top 10 list in order of preference (not taking into account retcon Class synergies) for NP:
1) First Aid - some classes do not have healing, others make it too expensive.
2) Battle Armor - who doesn't love perms
3) Sniper - w/o skills most classes play well as plinkers. This is the ultimate plinking skill.
4) Proper Hydration - going to need PP for all these skills
5) Vim - incredibly beneficial, even w/o SP
6) Trample - killing the Mick is frustrating in certain classes -- this is a good backup plan. Or maybe the primary plan.
7) Echolocation - important for only a few quests, but getting items helps survivability and helps fund PP needs
8) Stealth - faster quest advancement
9) Aura: Mental Magnetism - more quest advancement
10) Basic Martial Arts - nice passive

I'm only in my 5th retcon, so add one grain of salt.

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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:35 pm 
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I did several Gadget runs in a row, and didn't bother perming First Aid until the last one. It's really useful, but you get it pretty early...


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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:11 pm 
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Shikao wrote:
@6) Why not Maul? I know it's few levels higher, but it's simply better
It's expensive.

The skills I've permed so far:

Vim: +to-hit and +dodge are gold
Upgrade Armor: Sonic resist for the Mick is hard to get otherwise
Basic Martial Arts: passive +to-hit is very useful
Lightning Bolt: Good balance of power and cost
The Fire Within: passive +PP is very handy
Echolocation: passive +items is always useful
Trample: good damage and +to-hit and a reasonable cost

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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:45 am 
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Why has no one mentioned starfish regeneration? +hp per round = awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:06 am 
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I do most of my calculations of what the skill does at 0 points, since my runs are previous skills but only points in current.

At zero points, Starfish is 2 points per turn. Sure, two is better than none, but... well... it's a tiny amount. Especially once you get past level 3 or so.

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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:15 am 
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Cristiona wrote:
I do most of my calculations of what the skill does at 0 points, since my runs are previous skills but only points in current.

At zero points, Starfish is 2 points per turn. Sure, two is better than none, but... well... it's a tiny amount. Especially once you get past level 3 or so.


Eh. I think of terms of what I want to put points into- at 8 points a round, this skill becomes priceless.

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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:58 am 
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I've permed basically all skills I consider high-priority on Kurg(who's my main anyway). I mostly agree with the current reccomendations - EXCEPT...I'm not so sure Trample is needed, when Bovine Charge might be more efficient.

Also, I'm loving Shock Grenade, while it's somewhat expensive, it makes hard fights WAY less hard.

Armadillo Armor is also very useful for getting lots of DA.


Anyway, even if the skills I mentioned above cost P...
Don't forget that passives are *sweet* if you're lazy because, well, you don't need to actually manage your PP/remember to use them to get the benefit.

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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:01 pm 
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Doc Igor wrote:
I've always considered the natty combat skills rather pointless - much better to use the PP on firestorm or psi blast and get the guaranteed kill.
I believe trample is preferred because of the Mick's 50% resistance to all elements. Also, if you don't get a one-hit kill, trample will still trigger useful weapon effects. Like weakening.

Quote:
although knit flesh with the right equipment (Thunder in a Bottle and Karma charm) is fairly good as an alternative.
When doing all item runs, any healing skill is pretty pointless. With no-items, I prefer knit-bone, which removes negative effects (including concussion, which the hospital won't) and it heals a lot of HP, even at full price.

Satan wrote:
Eh. I think of terms of what I want to put points into- at 8 points a round, this skill becomes priceless.
I'd rather put those 10 points into other skills. And in the late game, even 8 HP isn't much. Not when foes can crit for 50.

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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:53 pm 
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Preference schmefremce, my actual first 10 went like this:

1. Lifeblood Manipulation - In my defense, I was planning on doing a cluster of Elemental runs, after picking up KO at #2 so it made sense at the time...
2. Aura: KO - Mostly for the XP, although in one run I actually didn't even need to pull a gold coin
3. Stealth
4. Regeneration - Why this instead of Echolocation? Uh... Let me get back to you on that...
5. Meditation
6. Firestorm
7. Hydration
8. Metal Detector
9. Aura: MM
10. Echolocation

I go back and forth between caffeine/no skill runs and abstainer/class skill, but always with pulls so survivability isn't much of a concern for me... otherwise you'd be seeing Vim and Basic Martial Arts and stuff in there.

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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:25 am 
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This is what I'd advise:

1) Upgrade Weapons (run Frickin' sharp at all times, 10 points asap)
2) First Aid (invest points gradually, I usually have 5 points there at the end of the run)
3) Armadillo Armor (run at all times, 10 points asap)
4) Mental Magnetism
5) Stealth (can delay that if you're already at max +noncom with pulls and MM)
6) Maul (1-hit bosses, get a blue chip every run, no need to invest any points in it)
7) Aura: Vim
8) Sundowner (only if you have a good source of PP)
9) Basic Martial Arts
10) Sinus of the Shark / Echolocation / Metal Detector (anything to help with the damn casino quest D:)

Tailored for 5 or 10 pull runs (few constraints on PP costs), for someone who cares about fast runs (and therefore runs as much +FT as possible).


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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:41 am 
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TeKRunneR wrote:
This is what I'd advise:

1) Upgrade Weapons (run Frickin' sharp at all times, 10 points asap)
7) Aura: Vim

I'd max Vim first, personally. And I'd run Self-Balancing at 6 points instead of Frickin' sharp.

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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Cristiona wrote:
TeKRunneR wrote:
This is what I'd advise:

1) Upgrade Weapons (run Frickin' sharp at all times, 10 points asap)
7) Aura: Vim

I'd max Vim first, personally. And I'd run Self-Balancing at 6 points instead of Frickin' sharp.


Agreed. The to-hit makes a huge difference to melee, which at times, can be so hit and miss.

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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:04 pm 
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Strlikecrazy wrote:
Agreed. The to-hit makes a huge difference to melee, which at times, can be so hit and miss.

Well, if you agree that +to-hit makes a huge difference, then you should probably also agree that frickin' sharp is better than self-balanced. I don't find fumbles to be a big problem, personally. If 1 or even 2 fumbles could get me beaten up in a fight, then I'm probably fighting in a zone that's too hard for me. Because then that means that 1 or 2 enemy crits would probably kill me as well (and I fumble and the enemy crits on the first round, then it's probably a good time to maul...).
Really, I'd say that deciding when to perm Vim (and BMA) depends a lot on how much +FT you have, and how well you're during when you're running it all. I know I'd have cared about +to-dodge even less had I permed Armadillo Armor earlier. It's a nice thing about TH btw, that skills and other available options (gear, sidekick) interact like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Skill Perm Order
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:07 pm 
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Well, remember, at 6 points, it's not just eliminating fumbles, it's also increasing critical hits by turning 10% of your fumbles into crits. And since that's converting fumbles, it won't run afoul of the critical hit chance cap.

Also, Frickin Sharp needs a name change. It sounds like +offense, not +to-hit.

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