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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:05 pm 
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I'd really love to have one of each item in my MD, but then I wont have the sidekick or avatars.
Could this once per lifetime limitation be lifted? Why is the limit there to begin with?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:36 pm 
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Because Ryme didn't want to have to deal with the bugs that could potentially be caused by people using one after they already had one.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:08 pm 
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I would be a bad programmer if potential bugs from using two kept me from implementing them.

The reason I picked one only is:
1) you can only get the avatar once
2) if left unlocked some poor schmoe would accidentally buy a second and be really mad at me, and report it as a bug
3) I didn't consider collectors might want the item. After all, the avatar is evidence of the item, just shown on a different screen.

Convince me that catering to #3 won't cause me more regret than dealing with #2, and I'll consider it.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:12 pm 
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Well... completest collectors will want to have one of the item in their display as well as have the ability to display it. Honestly, I don't think #2 is going to be too horribly likely.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:21 pm 
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Cristiona wrote:
Well... completest collectors will want to have one of the item in their display as well as have the ability to display it. Honestly, I don't think #2 is going to be too horribly likely.


You have inadequate appreciation for the kind of bug reports I get, and of the crazy things people will do. Most people are pretty sensible most of the time (definitely not bashing the player base at large here) but almost anybody will do something crazy some of the time, and some people do crazy things most of the time.

For instance, despite the "I promise not to forget things are in my closet" button, I still get bug reports about items lost in people's closets. I also get "I typed too many zeroes when buying items" reports and "I mis-clicked and used something I didn't want to" bug reports. Any of those are kind of parallel with #2.

It is not possible for you to convince me #2 won't happen. If you want this, you have to convince me #3 will provide greater good than #2 causes pain.

(*Ryme runs off to get a beer before he sounds any grumpier or more cynical.*)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:24 pm 
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On use of second one:
"You already have one of these so can't use it again, this is NOT a bug."

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:40 pm 
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That's not the issue. The issue is someone buying a second one when they don't need it and can't use it.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:04 pm 
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If someone gets one and then puts it in the display case, have that process remove the flag that says the player already has one. That doesn't seem like it'd be complicated to do, although whether doing so to cater to collectors is worth the effort...

There's also an argument that, as cool as the avatars are, the item is better evidence since only one avatar can be displayed.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:15 pm 
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Verification on purchase instead? At least part of the drawbacks being you'd either need a pointless check the first time anyone buys the sidekick skill or avatar, or you'd need to code in checks for having the skill/avatar already, which might be a hassle.

Alternately, maybe the sellback idea from the other Nocturne thread? That would mitigate the accidental purchase issue, especially if full mettle value were returned, but balance issues would probably make it a hassle to properly limit.

Food for thought.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:37 pm 
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If someone purchased and used the avatar already and didn't want a second, how would checking inventory for the existence of one help? It's already been used. It might prevent the purchase of a third, I suppose.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:03 am 
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Ryme wrote:
If someone purchased and used the avatar already and didn't want a second, how would checking inventory for the existence of one help? It's already been used. It might prevent the purchase of a third, I suppose.

Therein would lie the hassle. You'd need to check for the character having the avatar (from a used purchase) as well as checking for an unused version in inventory. I'd imagine it's possible to set up that sort of check, but I don't know how complicated the coding would be.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:42 am 
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Ryme wrote:
For instance, despite the "I promise not to forget things are in my closet" button, I still get bug reports about items lost in people's closets. I also get "I typed too many zeroes when buying items" reports and "I mis-clicked and used something I didn't want to" bug reports. Any of those are kind of parallel with #2.


Gotta be honest, this made me laugh! :D But it must be a pain to deal with. I think Hawk said my thoughts: how about two, or maybe three verification pages?
1)Are you sure you want to make this purchase?
2)I mean, once you've bought it, you can't get your mettle back. Understand?
3)Are you sure you understand? Report this as a bug, and i'll ban you. Umm, k?

Random annoying player: Oh noes! I accidently bought a 2nd @vatar! Mettle back pl0zzz
Ryme swings his ham banner, crushing the incompetent.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:47 am 
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<rant>
I think basically this falls under how someone wants to enjoy the game.

A completionist wants to have it all. All sidekicks. All avatars. All items in the MD. Choice is evil, let us have it all.
I am one, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. The main reason I prefer this game over some other, is that in this game I CAN have it all. Yes, I've spent money on 6 pouches (and don't tell my wife how much). But I can!
I believe the game has, over all, quite enjoyed from these tendencies of myself and other completionists. I think tending for people like us is in the interest of the game.

What you are saying is that some nincompoop's action once in a fortnight which might anger you slightly is more important than us. I find it hard to accept. Add a warning. Send them a polite response pointing them to the warning. Let us enjoy the game the way we want to.

I'd also like to point out that this is inconsistent. Spending 20 or 30 mettle in vain is nothing compared to spending 200 IOU in vain. Has there been many bug reports about people buying a second precompletion training certificate, barcoded picture frame or personal copy of the internet? These are in the game for quite some time. If there were so many reports were they so difficult to handle?
</rant>

Practically, several suggestions were made above, but let me add another. This is about protection from silliness. Let this protection from silliness be a matter of choice.
Add a general preference to the account setting which by defaults prevents one from buying silly things. Even call it that way "Protection from silly purchases". This will prevent you from buying not only the irrelevant mettle items but also the IOU ones and maybe other in the future. To be able to buy as many as you want, someone will have to deliberately remove this protection, and thus forfeit the right to complain about their silly purchase.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:49 am 
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Muhandes wrote:
Add a general preference to the account setting which by defaults prevents one from buying silly things. Even call it that way "Protection from silly purchases". This will prevent you from buying not only the irrelevant mettle items but also the IOU ones and maybe other in the future. To be able to buy as many as you want, someone will have to deliberately remove this protection, and thus forfeit the right to complain about their silly purchase.


I like that!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:49 pm 
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Muhandes wrote:
A completionist wants to have it all. All sidekicks. All avatars. All items in the MD. Choice is evil, let us have it all.
...

I believe the game has, over all, quite enjoyed from these tendencies of myself and other completionists. I think tending for people like us is in the interest of the game.


While the game is fairly friendly to completionists, it is not a haven. Just ask new players how they feel about the alpha and beta badges, or the baseball rewards, or the anniversary gifts they can't get. Ask dedicated players who disappeared for a while and missed the mining event. Those are very minor things precisely because I don't like to cut people out of too many opportunities, but they do exist, and we'll probably have at least a couple of them every year.

I tend to be a bit of a completionist myself, so I do understand. The part that's getting me here is where I'd want to complete an avatar collection for avatars, I wouldn't find myself inclined to also want to complete the avatar-as-item for the item collection. Not saying you're wrong for wanting it, just that it's hard to wrap my head around.


Muhandes wrote:
I'd also like to point out that this is inconsistent. Spending 20 or 30 mettle in vain is nothing compared to spending 200 IOU in vain. Has there been many bug reports about people buying a second precompletion training certificate, barcoded picture frame or personal copy of the internet? These are in the game for quite some time. If there were so many reports were they so difficult to handle?


Yes. There have been comments and bug reports, because players have done this. Not many, but a few. They were difficult for me to handle, in that I had to say "sorry, you're screwed, you've wasted those IOUs" to the regretful player. Not time consuming, no, but it instilled in me a desire not to create more of these situations, and it's almost directly a reason why I programmed the limits into my next specialty store for retcon.

Call it inconsistent if you like, but I call it "learning from my mistakes."


Muhandes wrote:
Let this protection from silliness be a matter of choice.
Add a general preference to the account setting which by defaults prevents one from buying silly things. Even call it that way "Protection from silly purchases". This will prevent you from buying not only the irrelevant mettle items but also the IOU ones and maybe other in the future. To be able to buy as many as you want, someone will have to deliberately remove this protection, and thus forfeit the right to complain about their silly purchase.


The opportunity cost here causes this to be an unlikely solution. It'd be a fair bit of extra time and potential for a lot of bugs coming out of the complicated additions for the protections and the toggle. I'd rather just turn off the protections and deal with bug reports than spend the hours trying to code this instead of new content.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:55 pm 
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Ryme wrote:
Muhandes wrote:
I'd also like to point out that this is inconsistent. Spending 20 or 30 mettle in vain is nothing compared to spending 200 IOU in vain. Has there been many bug reports about people buying a second precompletion training certificate, barcoded picture frame or personal copy of the internet? These are in the game for quite some time. If there were so many reports were they so difficult to handle?

Yes. There have been comments and bug reports, because players have done this. Not many, but a few. They were difficult for me to handle, in that I had to say "sorry, you're screwed, you've wasted those IOUs" to the regretful player. Not time consuming, no, but it instilled in me a desire not to create more of these situations, and it's almost directly a reason why I programmed the limits into my next specialty store for retcon.

Corrupt Shadow points to his two karma charms with chagrin.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:09 pm 
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At least you're a good sport about that stuff, CS.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Actually, thinking about it, is there anybody out there besides Muh who would want to buy one of these? Maybe the answer is just to make arrangements for him to make a trade with me, if he's the only one. I can't tell if any of the others are interested, or just discussing in a philosophical sense.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:05 pm 
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Valera is the only other person I can think of that was on a "collect them all!" kick a while back. She might have given that up by now, though.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:29 pm 
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I do plan to eventually get back to collecting all the items. But it's been quite awhile since I've assessed what I'm missing.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:39 pm 
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Harry Dresden wrote:
Valera is the only other person I can think of that was on a "collect them all!" kick a while back. She might have given that up by now, though.
She's still on it.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:37 pm 
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Ryme wrote:
Actually, thinking about it, is there anybody out there besides Muh who would want to buy one of these?

*Raises hand*

I shoot for 10, but that would be a really long-term goal. Like getting 10 Precompletion training certificates (almost halfway there!). Yes, I know that that is utterly ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:30 am 
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Jesus wrote:
Ryme wrote:
Actually, thinking about it, is there anybody out there besides Muh who would want to buy one of these?

*Raises hand*

I shoot for 10, but that would be a really long-term goal. Like getting 10 Precompletion training certificates (almost halfway there!). Yes, I know that that is utterly ridiculous.


11 would be ridiculous, 10 is fine.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:29 pm 
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I like to collect all items, I just don't show them off usually.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:08 pm 
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I have a solution that will make everyone happy! Well... more or less.

Okay, the items already check to see if you have the avatar or sidekick in question, so the code change should be minor.

When you use one of the items, it'll check if you've used it. If you haven't, nothing changes. If you have, instead of saying that you can't use it, the game spits out something like, "Remembering that you've already used one of these, you take it back to Nocturne's Shop. After a lot of whining and complaining, you finally manage to get a refund. The shopkeeper mutters something vaguely insulting towards you as he returns your medals. You gain 20/30 metal medals of mettle."

Basically, this would allow collectors to collect extras (hell, maybe someone will start collecting manuals or something), and silly people who buy an extra avatar for no discernible reason would still have a way to get back their mettle without having to file a bug report.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:37 am 
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That's an elegant approach. Could be implemented for IOUs as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:39 am 
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Seems like a decent idea

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:32 am 
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While I like Cris's idea, here's a very simple solution suggested by Lichen in chat:

[N] Lichen: that could be an easy fix is if they just didn't disappear [when used]

I know that would mean giving them back to people who already used them, not sure how painful that is.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:16 am 
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Muhandes wrote:
That's an elegant approach. Could be implemented for IOUs as well.

Yes--this! Stupid second karma charm.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:07 pm 
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Hokay. Here's my question:

I understand why you've set up the avatars for single-purchase - having more than one is kind of pointless. Same with the sidekick.

But the wiki claims the Night Mare is also single-purchase. Why is this? Assuming it cannot be pulled, it's actually a useful thing to purchase repeatedly, at least assuming you're on a no-pull run.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:23 pm 
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Well, she's kind of powerful for a no-pull run, and the description we gave her implies the backstory makes more sense if there's only ever one of her, I guess.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:47 am 
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Ryme wrote:
...makes more sense if there's only ever one of her, I guess.

Not like the Murk's Silk Shirt. He's got a closet full of the things. And being a Gadgeteer, naturally the Mecha Nist made an automated assembly line for his Night-vision Helmet, so there's a TON of them.

Is the Night Mare powerful enough to compete with the retcon equipment? If so, it may make sense to add her to that "you can buy ONE of these per retcon" list. After all, with characters effectively going through multiple worlds, it ought to be possible to get a bunch of 'only one in the world' stuff. <nerd>That was how Baron Zemo got two moonstones.</nerd>

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:51 am 
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I guess the theory is that the Mare is a living being. I mean, it's theoretically possible that Shadow Mist had a backup scythe or two.

Power-wise, I wouldn't put her in the same class as the other level 5 items. If people want to burn 20 mettle every run to buy one, I guess I wouldn't complain from a game balance standpoint. I will admit that my run with here was quite a bit of fun. Anyway, if she is going to be allowed for multiples, I would lock her like the rest of the named equipment; if you want the Mare, you don't get another piece of equipment.

If the narrative angle is a big enough hurdle, I can edit her description, saying that this Night Mare is actually just a scion of the original.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:29 pm 
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Perhaps, given her loyalty, she could be a free pull.
I mean, she'll stick with you no matter what, right? :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:00 am 
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Sorry to derail this back to the subject, but frankly, for myself, the mare was never an issue as it can be put in the MD, then pulled, used, and put back. There are plenty of items like this and I don't expect that to change.
The issue was with those items which are one time and are consumed when used, i.e. the avatars and the sidekick.


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