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Should Nocturne items be free pulls?
Yes 33%  33%  [ 2 ]
Hell yes 67%  67%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 6
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:02 pm 
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There are a few reasons for this:

1. Mettle is a free pull, as are mettle-based assemblies, so things purchased from mettle should probably be free pull
2. None of the items purchased from the store are game-breaking, and /all/ of them have sufficient level requirements.
3. As it is, if you're in a run without pulls, the items are useless. If you're in a run with limited pulls, you have to debate about using a pull to get them (when, if you had sufficient mettle, you could buy it again; but that'd be a waste). They're really only fully useful if you buy them in a run, or pull them in an unlimited pulls run.
4. There's really no sense of permanent gain (more so than if you had found a regular item in-run), since at the end of the run you purchase it in, it's essentially just another item in your inventory, even though you had to spend valuable mettle to get it.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:05 pm 
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No.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:06 pm 
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NO!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:17 pm 
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Would those posting "No" care to enlighten us as to why?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:27 pm 
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Satan wrote:
1. Mettle is a free pull, as are mettle-based assemblies, so things purchased from mettle should probably be free pull
Silvers stars are free pulls from the Wok, therefore all Wok items should be free pulls? Hardly. They're a special currency. You want a Nocturne item, you can bloody well buy it.

Quote:
2. None of the items purchased from the store are game-breaking, and /all/ of them have sufficient level requirements.
In a no item run, they are intensely powerful. Being able to freely pull two sets of hat/pants/weapon/shirt is exceedingly powerful. Even if they had no enchantments, it'd be unbalancing.

Quote:
3. As it is, if you're in a run without pulls, the items are useless.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote:
4. There's really no sense of permanent gain (more so than if you had found a regular item in-run), since at the end of the run you purchase it in, it's essentially just another item in your inventory, even though you had to spend valuable mettle to get it.
You have a strange sense of "permanent gain", then.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:04 pm 
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Cristiona wrote:
Satan wrote:
1. Mettle is a free pull, as are mettle-based assemblies, so things purchased from mettle should probably be free pull
Silvers stars are free pulls from the Wok, therefore all Wok items should be free pulls? Hardly. They're a special currency. You want a Nocturne item, you can bloody well buy it.

Quote:
2. None of the items purchased from the store are game-breaking, and /all/ of them have sufficient level requirements.
In a no item run, they are intensely powerful. Being able to freely pull two sets of hat/pants/weapon/shirt is exceedingly powerful. Even if they had no enchantments, it'd be unbalancing.

Quote:
3. As it is, if you're in a run without pulls, the items are useless.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote:
4. There's really no sense of permanent gain (more so than if you had found a regular item in-run), since at the end of the run you purchase it in, it's essentially just another item in your inventory, even though you had to spend valuable mettle to get it.
You have a strange sense of "permanent gain", then.


1. You can't wear Wok items in no pulls runs even if you can pull the stars to buy them. Wok items can definitely be game breaking that way. Of course, the Nocturne's items have level requirements, and are much much weaker.

2. Those items tend to be class focused, so they're only powerful in a certain way. And, they have level requirements that are fairly high. Level 5 for the weaker ones, level 9 for the more powerful ones. And even in a no pulls run, you can pull supersolid medals for free to get +8 to str/int/ref, and denser one to get another +4. Which is immediately helpful since there's no requirement.

3. My point was that, mettle itself can be used in a run to buy an item, or made/pulled as mettle assemblies. So why shouldn't those items bought with it be free pulls as well?

4. The point of retcon is that it's kind of like a new game +, right? Granted, it depends on how you choose your restrictions how much + you get. But allowing access to the items you get from your special reward seem like the least thing you could do. Even if not in no pulls runs, in limited pulls runs. Or are you saying if we want to have access to a particular item, we should keep spending mettle on it so that we end up with a bunch of duplicates?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:09 pm 
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Satan wrote:
Of course, the Nocturne's items have level requirements, and are much much weaker.
Try comparing them to other in-game items instead of donation items. The equipment in Nocturne's is vastly more powerful:

The Murk's Shirt: Level 9; Power 60; +10 spell damage; Skills -1PP; -5 seconds
Xentrium Plate: Level 9; Power 50; -10 seconds

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:12 pm 
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Broken poll is broken. Where's the "I'm Ryme and I'm not going to do this" option?

Short of it is, the gear is primarily designed for "no pulls" runs. In those runs, ideally it's enormously useful. Having one is great, having a lot would be too many, and remove the strategic choice of deciding which one to pick. I think it's far more interesting picking from one of the 8, than just pulling all 8 every run once you've earned them all.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:15 pm 
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Cristiona wrote:
Satan wrote:
Of course, the Nocturne's items have level requirements, and are much much weaker.
Try comparing them to other in-game items instead of donation items. The equipment in Nocturne's is vastly more powerful:

The Murk's Shirt: Level 9; Power 60; +10 spell damage; Skills -1PP; -5 seconds
Xentrium Plate: Level 9; Power 50; -10 seconds


Vastly? The -5 seconds tacked on to xentrium plate more than accounts for the +10 power and atleast some of the spell damage. -1 PP for a skill and a few extra spell damage isn't exactly vastly.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:31 pm 
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Satan wrote:
3. My point was that, mettle itself can be used in a run to buy an item, or made/pulled as mettle assemblies. So why shouldn't those items bought with it be free pulls as well?

Because...

Nocturne's Shop
Trade in mettle for rewards. There is a limit of one piece of blue equipment and three consumables during a run.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:39 pm 
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Ryme wrote:
Broken poll is broken. Where's the "I'm Ryme and I'm not going to do this" option?

Short of it is, the gear is primarily designed for "no pulls" runs. In those runs, ideally it's enormously useful. Having one is great, having a lot would be too many, and remove the strategic choice of deciding which one to pick. I think it's far more interesting picking from one of the 8, than just pulling all 8 every run once you've earned them all.


But then you end up having lots of the same item... And it's still strategic for /when/ to use which item, and still involves spending alot of mettle (76 in total). I don't understand why I need to keep paying mettle for the same item if I want to have any use for it in a no pulls run.

EDIT: Also, it's not a poll. Phpbb just doesn't have a petitions option. And the polls require you to have two options. Also, you don't sign a petition saying I'm not going to do this >.>

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:42 pm 
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TeKRunneR wrote:
Satan wrote:
3. My point was that, mettle itself can be used in a run to buy an item, or made/pulled as mettle assemblies. So why shouldn't those items bought with it be free pulls as well?

Because...

Nocturne's Shop
Trade in mettle for rewards. There is a limit of one piece of blue equipment and three consumables during a run.


I had forgotten about that restriction. If there's going to be a limit of one piece of equipment on top of the very high blue pieces of equipment... Which already aren't /that/ strong for their level... It doesn't really seem worth it. Also, if you pull the blue equipment, there's nothing enforcing using only one of the items. That limit only applies for buying an item.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:27 am 
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Satan wrote:
But then you end up having lots of the same item...
So what? On KoL, I have at least 10 complete sets of Plexiglass.

Satan wrote:
Which already aren't /that/ strong for their level
They're stronger than anything else at their level. Strictly from a power standpoint, they're two levels above their requirement. That's without even factoring in enchantments. Again, your views are completely skewed by donation equipment.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:30 am 
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As I told someone in chat, if you want to get any traction on this argument you should be asking "why can't I sell Nocturne items back for mettle" instead of trying to grab it all for yourself and make everything a free pull.

Not that I'm saying Ryme would consider making them returnable for mettle, but he'd probably give that argument a few seconds more thought before answering.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:24 am 
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Harry Dresden wrote:
As I told someone in chat, if you want to get any traction on this argument you should be asking "why can't I sell Nocturne items back for mettle" instead of trying to grab it all for yourself and make everything a free pull.

Not that I'm saying Ryme would consider making them returnable for mettle, but he'd probably give that argument a few seconds more thought before answering.


Shoot, I dont really care one way or the other as once I unlock everything ill be doing all pull runs, but selling items back for half the mettle you paid would be a really nice "compromise". Not saying Ryme needs to compromise, its his game, the current mechanics obviously have a lot of support, based off the number of no's, and I generally disagree with Satan on principle.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:19 pm 
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I'm going to say 'No' too :P

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:54 pm 
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for the argument:

why cant ryme make them 1 pull per run?

silver stars are free pulls, so the current iotm is basically a free pull.

the current system creates a problem that in order to be able to have say an umbra's shadow blaster every run you have to always do 12 mettle runs for the rest of your life :T

the bottom line:

none of this will matter to most of the active players after a while, we're all gonna have every single nocturne item eventually and there's not much other stuff really to buy (besides maybe consumables if you feel like using them in aftercore)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:11 am 
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For those pushing for consistency, the other option is to make it so mettle is not a free pull. This would be more akin to KoL's system, though still more flexible, IMO.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:49 pm 
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the SUPERnaturalist wrote:
for the argument:

why cant ryme make them 1 pull per run?

silver stars are free pulls, so the current iotm is basically a free pull.

the current system creates a problem that in order to be able to have say an umbra's shadow blaster every run you have to always do 12 mettle runs for the rest of your life :T

the bottom line:

none of this will matter to most of the active players after a while, we're all gonna have every single nocturne item eventually and there's not much other stuff really to buy (besides maybe consumables if you feel like using them in aftercore)


1. he could, does he want to, no. Coding that would not be fun. Also, it is his game live by his rules, there is not overwhelming support in favor of this, as visible by the 5 votes, so the vox populi is not behind you.

2. If you have silver stars as free pulls, you need to submit a bug report, or the wiki is wrong and I need to submit a bug report.

3. Its called pulling one or doing an all pull run, if you dont think it is worth the pull, but you still want to use it then either use more pulls or use all items, but dont complain because your sense of worth is different then others.

4. Nocturne consumables are useable in run, even the run you buy them.

Bottom Line: Retcon has made this game more fun, and has added a lot more variety to how I play it other than chip grinding at the castle to buy stars in the hopes of getting enough to get that month's IotM. Nocturne's items are sweet, and the current regime is perfect. Those blue pieces of equipment are seriously powerful. If you doubt that compare umbra to the gauze rifle. Same level req, same power.[ +3HP per turn (at level 9) and +5% to hit], or [+3 ranged attacks, +5% critical, and +20 ice damage]? The blindfold has an effect that only 2 other items in the whole game have. Night Mare will replace the lexura as my high level transportation when i get it.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:00 pm 
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I think silver stars are only a free pull in Maso/No Pulls, as a way to allow people to still get the IOTM if they're in a long run.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:21 pm 
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Harry Dresden wrote:
I think silver stars are only a free pull in Maso/No Pulls, as a way to allow people to still get the IOTM if they're in a long run.


Truth!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:52 pm 
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And as an addendum, even after you pull those free stars and buy the IOTM.......it won't let you use it until you're in a run with pulls. I think that's the death knell for that argument.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:07 pm 
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i didnt realize there wasnt even a "no" vote xD

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:10 am 
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Harry Dresden wrote:
And as an addendum, even after you pull those free stars and buy the IOTM.......it won't let you use it until you're in a run with pulls. I think that's the death knell for that argument.



Almost like someone in the middle of a 23+ day maso run had asked for that very thing to be allowed.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:46 am 
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malk-a-mite wrote:
Harry Dresden wrote:
And as an addendum, even after you pull those free stars and buy the IOTM.......it won't let you use it until you're in a run with pulls. I think that's the death knell for that argument.



Almost like someone in the middle of a 23+ day maso run had asked for that very thing to be allowed.


If you'll remember, I simply asked that if not in a no pulls run, atleast in limited pulls. Not to mention, all the equipment I had at that point in my run was better than the blue items I could have pulled (I've not even purchased any of the level 9 req items, and I was already at the level 10 quest when I made that post). My frustration with having to re-buy things is that I view these as unlockable equipment, and they function more like consumables that need to be continually repurchased if you want to use them in a no-pull/limited pull run, or use a pull that might be better spent on something else. The principle is I don't like having to buy the equipment I unlock multiple times. And I've already argued that the equipment itself is highly balanced by level, and not very good in general. I'd /like/ to atleast get some use out of the items I've unlocked, but as it is, they don't fit into my play-style. IotM's and run critical items are more important, so they get pulled, and I never have a chance to use the blue items. Yes, eventually I'll have purchased everything and will have mettle to spare to buy these items... But I think it kinda kills the spirit of unlockables if I can use them without care only 40 or so runs in (depending on the mettle, of course). If you don't agree with me, fine, but please pay attention to my arguments.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:23 am 
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Funny, and here I thought the whole purpose of a limited pull run was to actually have to consider which pulls to make.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:45 am 
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And here I thought the purpose of an unlockable reward was to be a reward.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:06 pm 
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CDMoyer wrote:
Satan wrote:
And here I thought the purpose of an unlockable reward was to be a reward.


Aren't you rewarded with the ability to buy, and then use, and then pull it?

I mean, it seems more like the issue is that they are weaker than the IotM gear you are using, so you'll never pull it.


Well, that's kinda the issue, yes. The only time I don't have access to the better IotM gear is in no pull runs, but that also means I don't have access to these items unless I buy one. I personally don't think having to re-buy these items is much of a reward for the amount of use they give you. Since the level 5 items are fairly weak, and the other items are stronger, but can't be used until level 9.

In the run I bought the items, I would use them unless I had something better at the time. But I have yet to find a reason to pull one. I think, perhaps a better solution to the one I previously proposed, would be to have them be one time unlock and purchase, but you purchase the ability to rent them for a run. So when you start a new run, you can choose an item you've already unlocked and purchased, without paying for it multiple times. I highly doubt that can do anything to unbalance no-pulls, but if people still want to argue against that (even though we have the free-pull mettle items for +12 to all stats), I wouldn't mind it only being allowed in limited pulls runs. Because otherwise, I just view these things as pointless collectibles that serve little to no purpose besides draining mettle, and the occasional use in a no-pull if you want to spend even more mettle. And I'm fine with it if people really don't want even that. I'm merely proposing an alternative that doesn't violate my sense of unlockables.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:50 pm 
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I was going to explain why your idea was stupid, then realized you won't listen anyway and will just come up with some other inane "reason". So, uh, I'm done.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:51 pm 
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Harry Dresden wrote:
I was going to explain why your idea was stupid, then realized you won't listen anyway and will just come up with some other inane "reason". So, uh, I'm done.


Yes, everyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:35 pm 
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The conceptual problem could also be solved by making them 'quest' items that vanish at Retcon. Then we wouldn't be debating whether you should be able to pull them or not.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Satan wrote:
they don't fit into my play-style.

You are not everyone, and by the looks of this petition, not even close to a majority of people and players agree. I have used the shadow blaster and pulled it the last few runs, and I plan on continuing to pull it as my high level ranged weapon for a long time to come. Why? It is the best item I have access to that does such. I enjoy having it as a pull, because it makes access to such a strong item balanced. I liek that you can only buy 1 in each run so that in 50 retcons I just dont buy myself all blues and own (in limited pull runs). It forces thought and trade offs while providing high powered items. Your claims that it is underpowered are ridiculous and show that you either havent read our arguments, so here you go, again

blackmatter615 wrote:
Those blue pieces of equipment are seriously powerful. If you doubt that compare umbra to the gauze rifle. Same level req, same power.[ +3HP per turn (at level 9) and +5% to hit], or [+3 ranged attacks, +5% critical, and +20 ice damage]? The blindfold has an effect that only 2 other items in the whole game have.

I have read your arguments, I have disagreed with them. i have stated why I disagree with them. Dont say I havent done something I have.
Satan wrote:
The only time I don't have access to the better IotM gear is in no pull runs


Really? Something that costs 10 dollars is better than something that costs nothing? Who would have ever guessed? Just because you have purchased (either from ryme or another) some of the best items in the game, that are optional and not everyone has access too, does not mean that anything that is less powerful is automatically junk. It just means you have something better that few people have access to.

Harry Dresden wrote:
I was going to explain why your idea was stupid, then realized you won't listen anyway and will just come up with some other inane "reason". So, uh, I'm done.


I too am done feeding the troll, also note, HD never called you stupid Satan, he called your idea stupid. Dont take things so personal, and dont act like he personally attacked you.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:39 pm 
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Here's a random thought which I actually had before this thread came up and which I feel is worth mentioning here...

For the people who don't like ending up with lots of the same retcon equipment and who feel like they're wasting mettle that could be spent on consumables, what if we could 'sell back' stuff to Nocturne for say, 1/2 or even just 1/3 the mettle value, rounded down?

Like, the 7-mettle equipment piece could be sold back for 3 or 2 mettle, the 12-mettle one for 6 or 4.
Too generous?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:28 pm 
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blackmatter615 wrote:
Satan wrote:
they don't fit into my play-style.

You are not everyone, and by the looks of this petition, not even close to a majority of people and players agree. I have used the shadow blaster and pulled it the last few runs, and I plan on continuing to pull it as my high level ranged weapon for a long time to come. Why? It is the best item I have access to that does such. I enjoy having it as a pull, because it makes access to such a strong item balanced. I liek that you can only buy 1 in each run so that in 50 retcons I just dont buy myself all blues and own (in limited pull runs). It forces thought and trade offs while providing high powered items. Your claims that it is underpowered are ridiculous and show that you either havent read our arguments, so here you go, again

blackmatter615 wrote:
Those blue pieces of equipment are seriously powerful. If you doubt that compare umbra to the gauze rifle. Same level req, same power.[ +3HP per turn (at level 9) and +5% to hit], or [+3 ranged attacks, +5% critical, and +20 ice damage]? The blindfold has an effect that only 2 other items in the whole game have.

I have read your arguments, I have disagreed with them. i have stated why I disagree with them. Dont say I havent done something I have.

Satan wrote:
The only time I don't have access to the better IotM gear is in no pull runs


Really? Something that costs 10 dollars is better than something that costs nothing? Who would have ever guessed? Just because you have purchased (either from ryme or another) some of the best items in the game, that are optional and not everyone has access too, does not mean that anything that is less powerful is automatically junk. It just means you have something better that few people have access to.

Harry Dresden wrote:
I was going to explain why your idea was stupid, then realized you won't listen anyway and will just come up with some other inane "reason". So, uh, I'm done.


I too am done feeding the troll, also note, HD never called you stupid Satan, he called your idea stupid. Dont take things so personal, and dont act like he personally attacked you.


Blah blah. In short I was talking to a specific person, Malk, via quote. I did not say /you/ did not read my arguments. I said /Malk/ did not read my arguments. I realize that because I have IotM's, I have access to generally better equipment than the rest of the populace, but the underpoweredness of the items is really the less of my two arguments. My main argument is that I really don't like buying multiples of items that I supposedly unlocked. It's an aggravating thing to me, and I thought it might aggravate other people, but if it's just me, again, that's fine. I titled this a petition in vain, apparently, because the only people who've posted are people directly against it, and only 4 other people are in favor.

I didn't notice your specific post about the items being 'seriously' powerful, I did address an earlier post by Cris a specific item. Personally I don't think they're all that powerful in terms of a retcon run (and that /is/ how I'm viewing them, as they're retcon rewards). I'm currently intoxicated so I don't feel like making a whole table of why I think the items are not that helpful in a run, but rest assured that is my opinion. If you disagree with my opinion, that's fine, but there's no definitive this is right or this is wrong in this situation. No one can be the judge of that. It's entirely subjective and people have been purposely attacking this particular idea because I posted it. I can guarantee that it wouldn't have attracted nearly so much bad attention if it hadn't been me, and that's why I hesitated to even post it, but I wanted to communicate something that I felt could be changed for the better. Next time I'll clearly know better.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:52 pm 
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Just to be clear, I wouldn't have liked this idea no matter who brought it up. Malk or Cris could have said the same thing, and I would still thought it a bad idea with bad reasoning.


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