Twilight Forums

Idle chat for wannabe heroes
It is currently Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:32 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

When do you think a 5/day pull no-perm run will be trumped by a all-skill no-pull run?
15 perms 8%  8%  [ 1 ]
22 perms 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
30 perms 15%  15%  [ 2 ]
Nearly all perms 8%  8%  [ 1 ]
Ain't never gonna happen 69%  69%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 13
Author Message
 Post subject: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:30 am
Posts: 217
When do you think a 5/day pull no-perm run will be trumped by a all-skill no-pull run? How many perms? Consider you have all items available to pull. And figure the standard is days rather than time.

_________________
Image
Navpane Rebuff: http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/87404


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:01 am
Posts: 4530
Location: the Conservatory with the lead pipe
Skill and skills are both deeply valuable. However, assuming equal player skill, I don't think in-game skills will manage to trump the power allowed by pulling items. Pulls will allow you to smooth the edges off RNG-screw and eliminate entire sections of screw. To say nothing of the flat out superiority of items; not just donation items, but things like tricycles and positronic computers, too.

How many of us have been screwed for want of a data plate or memory tube? Or a swingline stapler? And if you don't get screwed building your computer, that probably means you won't have a source of mangled data plates to decrypt for software, which means no Giganto or Garcias.

_________________
Image
The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone
--October Project: "Dark Time"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:44 am
Posts: 284
Cristiona wrote:
How many of us have been screwed for want of a data plate or memory tube? Or a swingline stapler? And if you don't get screwed building your computer, that probably means you won't have a source of mangled data plates to decrypt for software, which means no Giganto or Garcias.


What if your running Stealth and Aura: Repulsive Magnetism? And if you wanted the software aswell, then use MD and echolocation.

_________________
Image
Buying Stainless steelbreaker, n-barrelled shotgun and Seppia's cephalopod skullcap. Pm me here or ingame!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:29 pm
Posts: 1811
Location: Florida
Strlikecrazy wrote:
Cristiona wrote:
How many of us have been screwed for want of a data plate or memory tube? Or a swingline stapler? And if you don't get screwed building your computer, that probably means you won't have a source of mangled data plates to decrypt for software, which means no Giganto or Garcias.


What if your running Stealth and Aura: Repulsive Magnetism? And if you wanted the software aswell, then use MD and echolocation.


Good luck running those things with low PP and no PP regen for awhile/the whole run, without pulls.

_________________
Leader of PFE league. If you wish to worship me, ask me about joining my secondary league Cult of Satan (the largest league in the game!).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:01 am
Posts: 4530
Location: the Conservatory with the lead pipe
Strlikecrazy wrote:
And if you wanted the software aswell, then use MD and echolocation.
Let's compare:

1: Pull positronic computer
2: Pull software
3: Install computer
4: Use software
Pulls: 2
Turns/Time: 0/0 minutes

vs:

1: Be a Gadgeteer.
2: Survive in the Hive to get positronic parts.
3: Buy chassis.
4: Buy instructions.
5: Build computer.
6: Get 2 data plates.
7: Buy 2 hammers
8: Smash.
9: Decrypt data plate and get correct code.
10: Decrypt second data plate and get correct code.
11: Build software.
12: Install.
Pulls: 0
Turns/Time: 23/92 minutes

That's assuming 4 minute turns during the decrypting and that you started decrypting after you got the first data plate. Also assuming that the robots dropped their full set. In other words, utterly perfect RNG.

Furthermore, the player with pulls could do that before spending a single turn and as any class. Even someone with every skill and somehow having 10 points in every skill isn't going to be able to manage the 4 minute turns I used, nor will they be able to survive the Hive at level 1 with pyjamas and a sling shot (this also ignores the cost of range 4 vehicles). And they can only do this as a Gadgeteer. The difficulty drops majorly doing this with electronic computers, but they're less efficient.

Speaking of skill points, if you don't have points in the skills, using Stealth and MM will cost 25 PP for roughly 30 minutes of effect for a 6% increase in non-combats. Our character with pulls can grab a Rolled Dahl Doll, again before spending a turn, for a 5% increase.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying skills are worthless. I'm just saying that pulls are going to be vastly more powerful. I don't care how many +chip buffs you pile on, you aren't going to beat pulling a Blue Chip. Likewise, piling on +items will give you an edge and can increase the odds of getting those blasted staplers and paper clips, but they won't give you the instant 100% that a pull will.


Edit: And the drop rates in the Hive are abysmal. +20 from maxed Echo and +25 from maxed MD (incidentally, that's 20 SP we're assuming you have) still aren't enough to ensure drops.

_________________
Image
The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone
--October Project: "Dark Time"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:22 pm
Posts: 1338
Cristiona wrote:
Edit: And the drop rates in the Hive are abysmal. +20 from maxed Echo and +25 from maxed MD (incidentally, that's 20 SP we're assuming you have) still aren't enough to ensure drops.


Indeed they are. I've had Positronic Man running for 493 days now, and only gotten the parts for about 350-400 positronic computers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:44 am
Posts: 284
Cristiona wrote:
Strlikecrazy wrote:
Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying skills are worthless. I'm just saying that pulls are going to be vastly more powerful. I don't care how many +chip buffs you pile on, you aren't going to beat pulling a Blue Chip. Likewise, piling on +items will give you an edge and can increase the odds of getting those blasted staplers and paper clips, but they won't give you the instant 100% that a pull will.


I agree - and i understand. What bugs me is that people complain about pulls - yet they'll quite happily disregard skills. I'm not placing you or anyone who's posted in this thread in that category, but everytime i've used skills wisely, my run(s) have been made much faster.

What i'm getting at is that there is a balance. Having an arsenal of skills to pick from reduces the need to pull certain items - they can go hand-in-hand.

_________________
Image
Buying Stainless steelbreaker, n-barrelled shotgun and Seppia's cephalopod skullcap. Pm me here or ingame!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:01 am
Posts: 4530
Location: the Conservatory with the lead pipe
Strlikecrazy wrote:
What i'm getting at is that there is a balance. Having an arsenal of skills to pick from reduces the need to pull certain items - they can go hand-in-hand.
Oh, certainly, but this thread was a question on extremes :P

_________________
Image
The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone
--October Project: "Dark Time"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:29 pm
Posts: 1811
Location: Florida
Doc Igor wrote:
Strlikecrazy wrote:
I agree - and i understand. What bugs me is that people complain about pulls - yet they'll quite happily disregard skills. I'm not placing you or anyone who's posted in this thread in that category, but everytime i've used skills wisely, my run(s) have been made much faster.


It's conceivable that someone who's done 10,000 retcon runs, and has permed every skill (or at the very least Fire Within, Stealth, Aura:Mental Magnetism, Sinus of the Shark, MD, Aura:Keen Ob, Echolocation, Firestorm, Meditation and Memory of the Elephant) and thus can maximize those skills at level one could - with the RNG being a total slut at every opportunity, so never slowing progress - run as an Elemental and outperform a player using pulls w/o skills. But even then, that's relying on insane luck.


I could be wrong on this, but I remember Ryme saying something like the per level bonus will only get you up to 10 points per level. I could be wrong on that, though...

_________________
Leader of PFE league. If you wish to worship me, ask me about joining my secondary league Cult of Satan (the largest league in the game!).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:41 am
Posts: 433
Strlikecrazy wrote:
...everytime i've used skills wisely, my run(s) have been made much faster...

If people are curious about that sort of thing, here's my record with Solitude (who's been doing no pulls/no food/sidekick at 9 runs):

1. Elemental - 18 days - took Firestorm, which I needed to beat the Mick.
2. Elemental - 13 days - Proper Hydration
3. Elemental - 12 days - The Fire Within
4. Gadgeteer - 11 days - First Aid

_________________
Jesus (#229) | Solitude (#257)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:44 am
Posts: 284
Satan wrote:
Doc Igor wrote:
Strlikecrazy wrote:
I agree - and i understand. What bugs me is that people complain about pulls - yet they'll quite happily disregard skills. I'm not placing you or anyone who's posted in this thread in that category, but everytime i've used skills wisely, my run(s) have been made much faster.


It's conceivable that someone who's done 10,000 retcon runs, and has permed every skill (or at the very least Fire Within, Stealth, Aura:Mental Magnetism, Sinus of the Shark, MD, Aura:Keen Ob, Echolocation, Firestorm, Meditation and Memory of the Elephant) and thus can maximize those skills at level one could - with the RNG being a total slut at every opportunity, so never slowing progress - run as an Elemental and outperform a player using pulls w/o skills. But even then, that's relying on insane luck.


I could be wrong on this, but I remember Ryme saying something like the per level bonus will only get you up to 10 points per level. I could be wrong on that, though...


Do you know if anything happens to skill points after level 11?

_________________
Image
Buying Stainless steelbreaker, n-barrelled shotgun and Seppia's cephalopod skullcap. Pm me here or ingame!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:22 pm
Posts: 1338
After level 11, you just get the standard 2 points per level.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:44 am
Posts: 284
Harry Dresden wrote:
After level 11, you just get the standard 2 points per level.


Even if you've done 10,000 runs?

_________________
Image
Buying Stainless steelbreaker, n-barrelled shotgun and Seppia's cephalopod skullcap. Pm me here or ingame!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:22 pm
Posts: 1338
I don't know. Do 10,000 runs, and then you can tell us. :P


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pulls vs Perms
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:44 am
Posts: 284
Harry Dresden wrote:
I don't know. Do 10,000 runs, and then you can tell us. :P


Haha :D

_________________
Image
Buying Stainless steelbreaker, n-barrelled shotgun and Seppia's cephalopod skullcap. Pm me here or ingame!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group