Pulls vs Perms

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When do you think a 5/day pull no-perm run will be trumped by a all-skill no-pull run?

15 perms
1
8%
22 perms
0
No votes
30 perms
2
15%
Nearly all perms
1
8%
Ain't never gonna happen
9
69%
 
Total votes: 13

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Pulls vs Perms

Postby NardoLoopa » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:38 pm

When do you think a 5/day pull no-perm run will be trumped by a all-skill no-pull run? How many perms? Consider you have all items available to pull. And figure the standard is days rather than time.

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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Cristiona » Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:01 pm

Skill and skills are both deeply valuable. However, assuming equal player skill, I don't think in-game skills will manage to trump the power allowed by pulling items. Pulls will allow you to smooth the edges off RNG-screw and eliminate entire sections of screw. To say nothing of the flat out superiority of items; not just donation items, but things like tricycles and positronic computers, too.

How many of us have been screwed for want of a data plate or memory tube? Or a swingline stapler? And if you don't get screwed building your computer, that probably means you won't have a source of mangled data plates to decrypt for software, which means no Giganto or Garcias.
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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Strlikecrazy » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:39 am

Cristiona wrote:How many of us have been screwed for want of a data plate or memory tube? Or a swingline stapler? And if you don't get screwed building your computer, that probably means you won't have a source of mangled data plates to decrypt for software, which means no Giganto or Garcias.


What if your running Stealth and Aura: Repulsive Magnetism? And if you wanted the software aswell, then use MD and echolocation.
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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Satan » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:30 am

Strlikecrazy wrote:
Cristiona wrote:How many of us have been screwed for want of a data plate or memory tube? Or a swingline stapler? And if you don't get screwed building your computer, that probably means you won't have a source of mangled data plates to decrypt for software, which means no Giganto or Garcias.


What if your running Stealth and Aura: Repulsive Magnetism? And if you wanted the software aswell, then use MD and echolocation.


Good luck running those things with low PP and no PP regen for awhile/the whole run, without pulls.
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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Cristiona » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:33 am

Strlikecrazy wrote:And if you wanted the software aswell, then use MD and echolocation.
Let's compare:

1: Pull positronic computer
2: Pull software
3: Install computer
4: Use software
Pulls: 2
Turns/Time: 0/0 minutes

vs:

1: Be a Gadgeteer.
2: Survive in the Hive to get positronic parts.
3: Buy chassis.
4: Buy instructions.
5: Build computer.
6: Get 2 data plates.
7: Buy 2 hammers
8: Smash.
9: Decrypt data plate and get correct code.
10: Decrypt second data plate and get correct code.
11: Build software.
12: Install.
Pulls: 0
Turns/Time: 23/92 minutes

That's assuming 4 minute turns during the decrypting and that you started decrypting after you got the first data plate. Also assuming that the robots dropped their full set. In other words, utterly perfect RNG.

Furthermore, the player with pulls could do that before spending a single turn and as any class. Even someone with every skill and somehow having 10 points in every skill isn't going to be able to manage the 4 minute turns I used, nor will they be able to survive the Hive at level 1 with pyjamas and a sling shot (this also ignores the cost of range 4 vehicles). And they can only do this as a Gadgeteer. The difficulty drops majorly doing this with electronic computers, but they're less efficient.

Speaking of skill points, if you don't have points in the skills, using Stealth and MM will cost 25 PP for roughly 30 minutes of effect for a 6% increase in non-combats. Our character with pulls can grab a Rolled Dahl Doll, again before spending a turn, for a 5% increase.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying skills are worthless. I'm just saying that pulls are going to be vastly more powerful. I don't care how many +chip buffs you pile on, you aren't going to beat pulling a Blue Chip. Likewise, piling on +items will give you an edge and can increase the odds of getting those blasted staplers and paper clips, but they won't give you the instant 100% that a pull will.


Edit: And the drop rates in the Hive are abysmal. +20 from maxed Echo and +25 from maxed MD (incidentally, that's 20 SP we're assuming you have) still aren't enough to ensure drops.
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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Harry Dresden » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:42 pm

Cristiona wrote:Edit: And the drop rates in the Hive are abysmal. +20 from maxed Echo and +25 from maxed MD (incidentally, that's 20 SP we're assuming you have) still aren't enough to ensure drops.


Indeed they are. I've had Positronic Man running for 493 days now, and only gotten the parts for about 350-400 positronic computers.

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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Strlikecrazy » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:35 am

Cristiona wrote:
Strlikecrazy wrote:Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying skills are worthless. I'm just saying that pulls are going to be vastly more powerful. I don't care how many +chip buffs you pile on, you aren't going to beat pulling a Blue Chip. Likewise, piling on +items will give you an edge and can increase the odds of getting those blasted staplers and paper clips, but they won't give you the instant 100% that a pull will.


I agree - and i understand. What bugs me is that people complain about pulls - yet they'll quite happily disregard skills. I'm not placing you or anyone who's posted in this thread in that category, but everytime i've used skills wisely, my run(s) have been made much faster.

What i'm getting at is that there is a balance. Having an arsenal of skills to pick from reduces the need to pull certain items - they can go hand-in-hand.
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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Cristiona » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:48 am

Strlikecrazy wrote:What i'm getting at is that there is a balance. Having an arsenal of skills to pick from reduces the need to pull certain items - they can go hand-in-hand.
Oh, certainly, but this thread was a question on extremes :P
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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Satan » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:44 pm

Doc Igor wrote:
Strlikecrazy wrote:I agree - and i understand. What bugs me is that people complain about pulls - yet they'll quite happily disregard skills. I'm not placing you or anyone who's posted in this thread in that category, but everytime i've used skills wisely, my run(s) have been made much faster.


It's conceivable that someone who's done 10,000 retcon runs, and has permed every skill (or at the very least Fire Within, Stealth, Aura:Mental Magnetism, Sinus of the Shark, MD, Aura:Keen Ob, Echolocation, Firestorm, Meditation and Memory of the Elephant) and thus can maximize those skills at level one could - with the RNG being a total slut at every opportunity, so never slowing progress - run as an Elemental and outperform a player using pulls w/o skills. But even then, that's relying on insane luck.


I could be wrong on this, but I remember Ryme saying something like the per level bonus will only get you up to 10 points per level. I could be wrong on that, though...
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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Jesus » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:07 pm

Strlikecrazy wrote:...everytime i've used skills wisely, my run(s) have been made much faster...

If people are curious about that sort of thing, here's my record with Solitude (who's been doing no pulls/no food/sidekick at 9 runs):

1. Elemental - 18 days - took Firestorm, which I needed to beat the Mick.
2. Elemental - 13 days - Proper Hydration
3. Elemental - 12 days - The Fire Within
4. Gadgeteer - 11 days - First Aid
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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Strlikecrazy » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:28 am

Satan wrote:
Doc Igor wrote:
Strlikecrazy wrote:I agree - and i understand. What bugs me is that people complain about pulls - yet they'll quite happily disregard skills. I'm not placing you or anyone who's posted in this thread in that category, but everytime i've used skills wisely, my run(s) have been made much faster.


It's conceivable that someone who's done 10,000 retcon runs, and has permed every skill (or at the very least Fire Within, Stealth, Aura:Mental Magnetism, Sinus of the Shark, MD, Aura:Keen Ob, Echolocation, Firestorm, Meditation and Memory of the Elephant) and thus can maximize those skills at level one could - with the RNG being a total slut at every opportunity, so never slowing progress - run as an Elemental and outperform a player using pulls w/o skills. But even then, that's relying on insane luck.


I could be wrong on this, but I remember Ryme saying something like the per level bonus will only get you up to 10 points per level. I could be wrong on that, though...


Do you know if anything happens to skill points after level 11?
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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Harry Dresden » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:57 am

After level 11, you just get the standard 2 points per level.

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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Strlikecrazy » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:51 am

Harry Dresden wrote:After level 11, you just get the standard 2 points per level.


Even if you've done 10,000 runs?
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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Harry Dresden » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:22 am

I don't know. Do 10,000 runs, and then you can tell us. :P

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Re: Pulls vs Perms

Postby Strlikecrazy » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:01 am

Harry Dresden wrote:I don't know. Do 10,000 runs, and then you can tell us. :P


Haha :D
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