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 Post subject: Consumable requirements
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:10 pm 
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I see the purpose of this, but I question the some of the level requirements.

Candy Canes and Gumdrops come from IotM; them having a restriction seems odd.
Root Beer and Root Beer Float also come from IotM, but I can sorta see the point here.
Sweet Lichen has a level requirement of 6, but it's a limited item that can't be obtained any more. Seeing as how its sugar level isn't so hot, I don't see a reason for the requirement (as opposed to gem syrups which are pretty butch).

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:41 pm 
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All of this is in preparation for retcon, of course. (I know you know that, but not everyone else may be thinking on that level yet.) So level requirements in general have been mostly a function of rarity, amount of time the item gives, and the amount of fullness the item takes up.

Gumdrops are also among the best sugar out there (they're tied for the best if you take out limited content), so I didn't feel I could leave them without a level. I did feel weird about applying it belatedly to an IotM, but since they come from a summoning item your one pull can get you several days worth of gumdrops or candy canes. Based on returns, gumdrops should really be higher, and I settled for level 5 as a compromise. I suspect anyone who's motivated ought to be able to hit level 4 and use the candy canes on the first day of a run anyway, so it shouldn't be much of a hardship.

Same logic applies for the root beers. The float actually had a requirement of 8 from the beginning, and I lowered it to 6 to be in line with the other changes. There's a lot of stuff that comes from that particular IotM, and I don't think it's unreasonable for any of it to have level restrictions applied. (I didn't mention, but also put a level requirement on rocket boots, badger gloves, channeling sword, and the mace -- that stuff was downright broken if you could equip it from the first turn.)

Cristiona wrote:
Sweet Lichen has a level requirement of 6, but it's a limited item that can't be obtained any more. Seeing as how its sugar level isn't so hot, I don't see a reason for the requirement (as opposed to gem syrups which are pretty butch).


You think I can remember this was a limited release? :) That's far beyond me. Anyway, nothing says I might not use more of it at some point. Since it's identical to the root beer float in terms of fullness and time gained, the usage level ought to be identical, too, right?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:23 pm 
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Ryme wrote:
Gumdrops are also among the best sugar out there (they're tied for the best if you take out limited content), so I didn't feel I could leave them without a level. I did feel weird about applying it belatedly to an IotM, but since they come from a summoning item your one pull can get you several days worth of gumdrops or candy canes.
Fair enough. Just wanted their source to be considered, but I understand your arguments. Frankly, I thought I was going to find more stuff to whine about, but most of the levels make sense, so I really only found these few things.

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There's a lot of stuff that comes from that particular IotM, and I don't think it's unreasonable for any of it to have level restrictions applied.
They also require more work (time), but I had less of an issue with their requirement. The Sack items were more of a flag because they just drop in your lap.

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(I didn't mention, but also put a level requirement on rocket boots, badger gloves, channeling sword, and the mace -- that stuff was downright broken if you could equip it from the first turn.)
Darn. You noticed >_>

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You think I can remember this was a limited release? :) That's far beyond me.
You suck at this game :P

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Anyway, nothing says I might not use more of it at some point. Since it's identical to the root beer float in terms of fullness and time gained, the usage level ought to be identical, too, right?
Honestly, I hadn't looked at the returns granted by lichen. I'm sure people would love you to bring back lichen, especially if you bring back the chance to get the rock mover badge, heh.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:32 pm 
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Cristiona wrote:
Honestly, I hadn't looked at the returns granted by lichen. I'm sure people would love you to bring back lichen, especially if you bring back the chance to get the rock mover badge, heh.


Nah, next time around I'll do a Mock Rover badge for teasing dogs. But you can only get it if you don't have the other one. Everyone's unhappy; Ryme wins!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:11 am 
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I think we're having a semantic disagreement. I meant one pull gives you new summons every day, which would include gumdrops and candy canes each day, for every day of the run. That's several days of items for one pull.

Did not mean that it filled up your sugar quota for each day.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:26 am 
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I was surprised at how low the level requirements were. I don't foresee a problem with them on a personal level.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:39 am 
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I see this adding a fair more amount of strategy/planning for retcon pulls than the previous system of just loading up with a bunch of exigen/gumdrops/marshmallow blasts before retcon starts up. I am a fan of requiring more planning.

Well done good sir.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:47 am 
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I'm happy with the level requirements. Even for just transmogging, the only way it'll effect me is to force me to use sugar/caffeine during the day instead of right at the beginning.

As for retcon strategy, that becomes much more fun (i.e. difficult) unless someone is taking the easy runs every time and basically just transmogging but doing quests.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:49 am 
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I would disagree with your stated opinion. Accomplishing something difficult can be an absolute blast. The thrill of planning out a difficult task, and then doing it has inspired people to climb mountains, go to space, and discover new continents. Difficult most definitely can be fun.

Now, if you are the type who likes to turn their brain off and use TH for that, then I can see how more planning would make you see less fun, but seeing your supply of squid discs and liao makes me think that a little bit unlikely. I think that adding this in helps the high level player (and I mean in terms of high level planing, not xp) while not affecting those who coffee and gumball it at all. Heck, even mister teas are available at level 5, which should be easy to get to in a day unless you are on a maso run (and even then).

For difficult things to do in this game, I would enjoy seeing who could be the first to retcon twice in one day with limited/no pulls, or without any caffeine or sugar.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:05 pm 
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Doc Igor wrote:
difficult!=fun

In fact, they're practically the opposite of each other.


I don't think either "difficult" or "easy" have a direct relationship to fun. They're off on a tangent. Fun comes mostly from other things. It is true that things which are too hard are generally more frustrating than fun, but it's also true that things which are too easy are generally more boring than fun. (Playing chess against a grandmaster isn't going to be much fun, because you'll lose quickly and have minimal chance to win. Arm wrestling a child isn't really fun either, because there's nothing in it but humoring the child.)

For the most part the art is to keep gameplay within some bounds where it's neither too easy nor too difficult, because either end of the spectrum spoils the fun of the gameplay. Now it's also clear that different people have different tolerances, and if I'm doing my job right I'm faced with either A) picking one level and catering to it as my target audience and forget the rest, or B) providing some stuff at different spots, and accepting sometimes some things are too hard for some people (hopefully they use the wiki and get by) and some things are too easy for others (hopefully they click through and look for more mentally engaging stuff).

In this particular case I don't think the consumption requirements pose too much hardship on any well-informed player, but they do add a touch of thought to an issue which before had been trivially easy (boring, one might say, or a completely solved problem). With the restriction, very new players will have something to look forward to, and in retcon anyone wanting to be competitive in a run may have to apply at least a few considerations. I think, overall, it'll add more to the quality of most players' experience than it'll take away.


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