OMG RETCON! (discussion)

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Muhandes
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Muhandes » Mon May 03, 2010 2:33 am

Ryme wrote:"Mormon"

Not a good idea. I'd probably take offense if you named something "Jew", even if it was somewhat related.

Ryme wrote:The default plan is with each run through you are allowed to keep one skill that you'll start the next run with.

Do you just start the next run with it, or are you keeping it for all future runs?

Also, I'd like to see some aftercore, where once you've beaten the Mick you can choose not to retcon immediatly. Your performance is logged for leaderboards and run prizes, and you gain access to skills, sidekicks and dietary options you might have locked yourself from in the run. It can be called "regaining your memory".
I think some form of skillpoints should also be kept. My main concern is metalmorph and catalyze which I would like to use in aftercore without having to level an additional 20 levels just so I can max both. Maybe a set number of skill points per past retcon, or dependent on the retcon difficulty score? Something like, in aftercore you get 1 skillpoint per past retcon, or one skill point per 5 difficulty points you had in your past.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Ryme » Mon May 03, 2010 5:58 am

Muhandes wrote:
Ryme wrote:"Mormon"

Not a good idea. I'd probably take offense if you named something "Jew", even if it was somewhat related.


You think? :) That's 100% why I said it wouldn't go over well. (Also: even if it was a run where sugar was replaced with wine and caffeine was replaced with unleavened bread, and all the foes were turned into Egyptians? Wait, on second thought, that wouldn't go over with Egyptians either, probably.)

Muhandes wrote:
Ryme wrote:The default plan is with each run through you are allowed to keep one skill that you'll start the next run with.

Do you just start the next run with it, or are you keeping it for all future runs?


All future runs. The skill perming process would be permanent, except for cases where you choose a restriction that lets you forget them for a specific run.

Muhandes wrote:Also, I'd like to see some aftercore, where once you've beaten the Mick you can choose not to retcon immediatly. Your performance is logged for leaderboards and run prizes, and you gain access to skills, sidekicks and dietary options you might have locked yourself from in the run. It can be called "regaining your memory".


Yep, that's exactly what I'd planned. There will be some equivalent to KoL's "break the prism" moment where the current run is effectively stopped, and all your previous stuff comes back to you.



Muhandes wrote:I think some form of skillpoints should also be kept. My main concern is metalmorph and catalyze which I would like to use in aftercore without having to level an additional 20 levels just so I can max both. Maybe a set number of skill points per past retcon, or dependent on the retcon difficulty score? Something like, in aftercore you get 1 skillpoint per past retcon, or one skill point per 5 difficulty points you had in your past.


I am 100% sure there will be ways to get more skill points than just 2/level. I am not sure what those ways will be, yet. Some are very likely to be able to be gained instantaneously, such as a book that grants some extra points immediately. There is also already a plan to give additional skill points based on +1 per retcon you've done, but spread over 1 per level. (4 retcons means 4 bonus points, given out at first, second, third, and fourth levels.)

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby seventhcross » Thu May 06, 2010 10:09 pm

I am glad to see us another step closer to retcon.

I think I'd like the checklist to be more of an on/off switch system than a list of choices. I understand that wouldn't work for all of the lists, but it does for most of them. (examples will follow on each table.)

Basic options table. I like to see this, but it obviously needs more than one choice. ;) perhaps have this be either the level requirement choice or the skill power choice tied as the "foundation" choice. ex:
Foundation Choice wrote: Choose one of the following:
[]Basic (complete lv 11 quest) 1pt
[]Heroic (reach lv 20) 5pt
[]Super-heroic (reach level 50) 10pt


Items table, I like having a default choice that gets modified by the check boxes here:
Items wrote:Begin with all items (no point bonus), or choose one of the following:
[] Gadgeteer access ("rebuild", aka pull, 10 items from your inventory each day.) +1
[] Psion access (recall where you misplaced 5 items from your inventory each day) +2
[] Elemental access (only the basics, just IotM access) +1
[] Naturalist access ("who needs it?" no access to previous items) +5
The class name flavoring might confuse some people, I think it sounded appropriate. Alternately, Elemental access could be the ronin level and you could simply increase the point cost of gadget and psion to 2 and 3 respectively. Though, personally, I don't care for the ronin style.

Skills, I don't have much to change... though here's an example of the on/off switches:
Skills wrote:You'll have access to all your mastered skills, unless you choose otherwise:
[] difficulty learning (non class skills cost 2x for each level) +2
[] Amnesia (all previous skills turned off) +5
The on/off approach simplifies it a little and doesn't require you to check a box in each and every category if you choose not to... Also, If you limit the permed/mastered skills to only spending points on ones that are class specific, I think you'll be maxing out class level to easily and the cross class ones will be too weak to be much use. Therefore I changed it to having a higher cost for each level, though I know nothing about coding, so I am unaware of how much trouble that could be to create.

Consumables are the best example of simplified on/off switches. You wouldn't need to create the extra label for "oxegenarian".
Consumables wrote:You are on normal consumption, unless you choose otherwise:
[] Decaf (no caffeine) +3
[] Diet (no sugar) +2
[] Naturally Hyper (+1 hour each night) -1
Drops it from 5 to 3 checkboxes (though one of them provides negative points) and you still have all th options that were available in the old list. Plus a couple new combinations, I suppose.

Sidekick is pretty much just a simple on/off switch if you only consider the permanent sidekick. I'd like to see the sidekick items involved with this choice as well.
Sidekicks wrote:Your sidekick will be with you through thick and thin, unless you tell him/her to get lost:
[] Tragedy (Your sidekick decided to go study at the Cube again, re-convince him to join you at level 9) +2
[] Anti-Social (no access to previous item sidekicks) +2
[] Loner (no sidekicks at all) +5
Loner might be a bit under valued due to giving up all use of the sidekick slot, but it gives you an idea of what I'm thinking of.

I'd also like to see a way to limit equipment slots. At the most basic it would be just turning off one or both of the accessory slots for maybe +2 each. At the most involved you could turn off any equipment slot, though that would probably involve much coding since you would need to adjust for certain equipment slots such as vehicle since you would still need to get places, perhaps you simply would not get any of the other powers beyond range for your vehicle. You could use the same effect for weapons and shirts/pants/suits, where the player gets the power boost, but not any added benefit/drawback, or you could write in equations with those slots that gives them extra power boosts as they level in those areas since they couldn't wear items in those slots. for example:
[] Pacifist (no weapons: you lose all benefits from weapons other than their power) *or* (no weapons: You will get an increase to your attacks/damage based on your level since you cannot wield weapons "PACIFIST CRUSH!") *bonus points if you caught that reference :mrgreen:
and the same can be done for clothing and vehicle slots. I think it would be a fun restriction to try, though I don't know how others would feel about it...

As for all the other posted ideas, I assume the comparisons were simply to benefit the community in giving examples for how they could combine their options for KoL style runs and that they will not be "preset" run options? Leaderboards I have never been terribly interested in, but the bonuses and prizes both look really good for what you have listed so far. Mystery prizes! YAY!
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Muhandes » Fri May 07, 2010 1:07 am

I'd try to avoid over complication. We don't want the path choice to become an exercise in optimization (though it is a subject of personal interest to me).

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby seventhcross » Fri May 07, 2010 5:32 am

Muhandes wrote:I'd try to avoid over complication.
Well, you're right on the over-complication, that's why I didn't actually write up a checklist for that last one. But, this is just brainstorming, so I am gonna throw my ideas out there.

Muhandes wrote:We don't want the path choice to become an exercise in optimization.
It became an exercise in optimization the minute we decided to make it into a checklist of options :P
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby blackmatter615 » Sat May 08, 2010 5:58 pm

I would be against allowing equipment slots to be turned off because there are a few missions that require certain equipment. Take for example the skeptic sandals, and you have to find someway underwater for another quest. There is also the issue of transportation you mentioned. Also, the names you have come up with for item pulls have a very high potential to confuse. Furthermore, Ryme has said that there will be quests that require the full-time sidekick, if i remember right, so once again the loner option could cause major difficulty.

Yes, I know you dont have to do the quests, but they are the easiest way to gain money, xp, and (personally) enjoyment from this game.
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Satan » Sat May 08, 2010 6:59 pm

As for equipment and sidekicks, those can quite easily be coded around (the former by allowing quest items to be equipped even if the slot is disabled, the latter has been discussed, but could also be only enabled for quest purposes). Personally, though, I'm not sure that amount of complexity is necessary (the equipment, sidekick one is reasonable). By which I mean, there shouldn't be such a need to gather bonus points that you'd disable current equipment slots. On the other hand, it does bring up interesting badge potential.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Cristiona » Sat May 08, 2010 8:12 pm

seventhcross wrote:I'd also like to see a way to limit equipment slots. At the most basic it would be just turning off one or both of the accessory slots for maybe +2 each.
While this sort of thing is right in the wheel house of check-box options, I'd like to stay away from this particular road. Various slot restrictions strikes me as more the domain of self-imposed challenges, as opposed to ones that should be managed by the game. While it's true you technically only need boots and transportation (sub-mar car handles underwater), we're already teetering on the brink of option overload (however, you nicely streamlined consumables). Slot elimination strikes me as a bit too much.


Thinking on this, though, I think we'll need a little more safe guards than KoL's "are you sure" checkbox. I think we should have that checkbox, but should also have a summary page for a final chance, since we're talking about everything KoL has, plus various options. Something like:

As you prepare to rewrite your history, you look over your handy outline. It seems your new back story will be:

New Class Gadgeteer
Permed Skill From This Life The Fire Within

How Epic Will This Life Be? Level 20 (10 pts)
How Much Will You Cheat? No pulls; X hour break (3 pts)
How Much Will You Remember? All skills, but only points to current class (2 pts)
How Dependent Will You Be? Can use both caffeine and sugar (0 pts)
How Friendly Will You Be? Sidekick is gone until 9 (2 pts)
Total Point Value 17 points; this will be a Tier 1 life

Does this look right to you?
[I'm Ready For My New Life!]
[No, Wait! I Made a Mistake!]

Or something like that.
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby seventhcross » Tue May 11, 2010 9:46 am

seventhcross wrote:I think it would be a fun restriction to try, though I don't know how others would feel about it...

It seems others feel strongly against equipment restrictions... But I kinda like the thoughts here.
Cristiona wrote:Various slot restrictions strikes me as more the domain of self-imposed challenges
Satan wrote: On the other hand, it does bring up interesting badge potential.


blackmatter615 wrote:Also, the names you have come up with for item pulls have a very high potential to confuse.

yeah, I know...
seventhcross wrote:The class name flavoring might confuse some people
I am very aware of the confusion factor that will inevitably crop up from this. which means, I'm aware they probably won't be used. However, I thought they were amusing enough to be put into my idea list. :wink:
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Cristiona » Wed May 12, 2010 12:05 am

Ryme wrote:
Items options -- (like pulls in KoL) wrote:[] No pulls: +5
[] Some pulls: +2
[] Max pulls: 0
[] "Give me a break" after X hours of in-game time or point X (basically ronin): -2 points
[] All items available to you immediately: -4 points
** The terms "some" and "max" are vague. They might be fixed numbers, like 5, 10, or 20/day. They might be X/quest finished. They might be something else.

Will there eventually be "free pull" items, like in KoL? I don't think we have anything utterly innocuous right now, expect maybe the gag sendables (white elephant, raspberry, plaudits).

Also, if we decide to have free pulls, custom items should be free pulls >_>
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Strlikecrazy » Wed May 12, 2010 12:34 am

Cristiona wrote:
Ryme wrote:
Items options -- (like pulls in KoL) wrote:
Also, if we decide to have free pulls, custom items should be free pulls >_>


Except Livia's pendant -that shouldn't be a free pull :P
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Muhandes » Wed May 12, 2010 5:51 am

Cristiona wrote:Also, if we decide to have free pulls, custom items should be free pulls >_>


All that fuss just so maybe 4 people will be able to enjoy free pulls on custom items.

Oh wait.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby AldenteVonTino » Thu May 13, 2010 5:21 am

Ok, here's a question from left field:
I searched for "retcon" (and "ascension", which seems to go hand in hand I guess) and have found nothing with details on what this (these) is (are).
Could someone with brains please pass on some useful information as to what this actually is?
:?: :? :shock: :? :?:
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Ryme » Thu May 13, 2010 6:03 am

Ability to replay the game, while potentially allowing your character to get more powerful. Based on KoL's ascension:

http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Ascension

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby AldenteVonTino » Thu May 13, 2010 6:28 am

Ok, before I was merely looking forward to it, now I am greatly looking forward to it!
Thanks!
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Muhandes » Thu May 13, 2010 8:45 am

Ryme wrote:Ability to replay the game, while potentially allowing your character to get more powerful. Based on KoL's ascension:

http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Ascension


Which is in itself has roots in the idea of ascension in NetHack.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Cristiona » Fri May 14, 2010 2:14 am

The concept of ascending to a higher plane long predates Nethack :P
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Muhandes » Fri May 14, 2010 3:21 am

Cristiona wrote:The concept of ascending to a higher plane long predates Nethack :P


I still think TPTMBG got it from NetHack rather than some mystical belief.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Satan » Fri May 14, 2010 9:35 am

You're both clearly wrong. They stole the idea from Chrono Trigger's New Game+ >.>

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Ryme » Fri May 14, 2010 6:46 pm

Muhandes wrote:
I still think TPTMBG got it from NetHack rather than some mystical belief.


I'm VERY sure they got the word from NetHack. I'm also pretty sure their implementation isn't quite like nethack, and I'm definitely borrowing from their method, rather than nethack's. I've already had religious references shot down, so I obviously can't make use of the early biblical references about ascending to a higher plane that are the earliest instances I know of.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Sanjuro » Sat May 15, 2010 1:20 pm

Just a few thoughts.

1. I know Ryme limited the supply of Scalpels and Brays to prevent abuse. Will starting over (or New Game+ or whatever) allow us to get more of them?

2. How will this affect our ASX chips and SUIT points? Will they reset back to zero, or will we keep them?

3. How will this affect our PvP rankings?

EDIT: I'm not looking for definitive answers here. Just hoping to spur some discussion.
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby zillow » Sat May 15, 2010 1:31 pm

I think it was said that the Scalpels and Brays will be 10 per run so you can get them again, ASX and SUIT points should (in my opinion) not be reset, cause they don't affect anything except for leaderboards, and PvP rankings (again in my opinion) should be reset but a leaderboard should be made for overall ranking and current ranking
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Harry Dresden » Sat May 15, 2010 4:44 pm

Now that the Ex-C is just as good or better, I think Scalpels and Brays should be available per run. It's still only 10 per.

I agree that ASX and SUIT should not reset, unless those leaderboards are going to go away. No reason for them to go back to 0.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Ryme » Sat May 15, 2010 5:56 pm

Zillow's probably right about all that. Possibly the ASX and SUIT would have both current run and lifetime, not sure.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Sanjuro » Sun May 16, 2010 10:36 pm

In a similar vein, I think Sector 7-Gamma should reset in difficulty after starting over, but we would need current and lifetime leaderboards.
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Ryme » Mon May 17, 2010 6:40 am

If that's not stated here already, the entire robots quest will reset every retcon, and there would be lifetime boards for any board already existing.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby zillow » Mon May 17, 2010 3:57 pm

What about giving back the S7G kills once you have finished the ascension?
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Sanjuro » Wed May 19, 2010 12:38 am

I'm sorry for repeating stuff that was mentioned already. I was just thinking of various aspects of the game and how they would be affected by do-overs, Mulligans, whatever-you'll-call-it.

BTW, what will you call it?

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Satan » Wed May 19, 2010 6:29 am

zillow wrote:What about giving back the S7G kills once you have finished the ascension?


That was my suggestion from months ago. I think it works out well, allows you to continue making progress there if you want to.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Ryme » Wed May 19, 2010 4:30 pm

What about people who might want to NOT immediately jump to highest difficulty after finishing a run. For instance, someone who wants an easier route to a high lifetime total. Making it a choice seems unnecessarily fiddly and far too meta-gamey. Assuming either way is going to frustrate a few people, but keeping each run's counter independent makes far more logic than having certain conditions which cause that number to jump to some other past level.

In short: it's gonna reset each run.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Satan » Wed May 19, 2010 8:40 pm

Let's not entirely rule it out now >.> What if you had the /option/ of bringing back your highest count (i.e., any kills done /before/ are not counted towards the highest count when you choose to bring it back). If you surpass your highest count, it simply takes away the option since it's no longer applicable. I personally don't think it's a good idea to let people rack up easy kills for the leaderboards when other people are staying and fighting the tougher ones. Since every single robot has a unique difficulty, the only true measure of merit is how many robots you've killed in a row. It'd be BS if someone kept killing the first few hundred easy ones then ascended to do it again, they'd easily gain on people who actually had to work to beat the higher numbers.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Muhandes » Thu May 20, 2010 12:11 am

Perhaps I'm over-complicating things, but it seems like there are two totally separate merits here:

1. Total number fought.
2. Highest level of foe fought. This would be what Satan calls "how many you killed in a row"

I see the merit in both. Maybe the best solution is to have two leaderboards then?

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Sanjuro » Sun May 23, 2010 11:33 pm

Ryme wrote:What about people who might want to NOT immediately jump to highest difficulty after finishing a run.


And what OCD grammarians who might want to NOT twice split infinitives? :)

Anyway, what if I choose to start over without any IOTM's. How will this affect my Recyclonizer and sidekick skills (ice sculptor & grumpy smuggler)? I think the Recyclonizer link should give you a message that tells you it is unavailable, and the sidekick screen should show the IOTM skills, but "grayed out" as unavailable options.

For that matter, how about the non-IOTM sidekick skills? I would hate to finish the last quest and then find another person willing to sell a banned book.
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Cristiona » Sun May 23, 2010 11:51 pm

"Your Recylonizer is broken and you really don't have time to fix it right now."

As for sidekicks... I would assume that event sidekicks (the extortionist) would work just like all the other non-IotM sidekicks. If you're doing no sidekicks, they're grayed out; if you're doing no IotM, nothing changes.

If we're doing checklists, it seems that IotM/non-IotM designations for familiars are less important.
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Ryme » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:40 pm

Wanted to throw out the idea of names for certain combinations that are likely to be popular, or likely to be at least talked about a lot. Points and restrictions are based on my suggested retcon configurations earlier in this thread.

Trainee
(all items, all skills, all food, full sidekick)
1 point

Basic
(max pulls plus a "give me a break" point, all skills, all food, full sidekick)
3 points

Classic
(max pulls, all skills, all food, full sidekick)
5 points

Champion
(some pulls, class skills, all food, full sidekick)
9 points

Silver
(no pulls, all skills, all food, full sidekick)
10 points

Gold
(max pulls, no skills, all food, limited sidekick)
12 points

Temperant
(no pulls, all skills, no food, full sidekick)
15 points

Grimdark
(no pulls, no skills, all food, limited sidekick)
17 points

Maso
(no pulls, no skills, no food, limited sidekick)
22 points, as tough as it gets

Basic is essentially KoL's softcore. Classic takes away the ronin period and is a little more rewarding, probably also more likely to interest competitive types. Silver is basically KoL's hardcore. Temperant is basically KoL's hardcore oxygenarian, and Grimdark is a close approximation to Bad Moon ... without all the other Bad Moon-specific stuff being implied.

Gold doesn't exist at all in KoL, but I think could be a nice arena for newer and older accounts to compete -- doesn't matter how many skills you have permed, just the stuff you can pull.

I'm encouraging Champion as an option that's just a bit tougher than Classic (fewer pulls), and really puts the emphasis on your current class. I could see it being a niche field, but one that adds a little variety to runs by enhancing the flavor of each class, since that kind of gets lost once you have a lot of skills permed.

Trainee and Maso, at opposite ends of the spectrum shouldn't need too much explanation. I don't really think Maso would be an enjoyable type of run to play, but I suspect some people out there will want to do it, either as a badge of honor, or out of some need to punish themselves. Not sure if "trainee" has some negative connotations, and should be renamed to something else.

And just as a note, Silver, Gold, and Grimdark names are pulled from ages or styles of comic books. There's a bronze and modern age--obviously modern doesn't really work, but bronze might be fit in there somewhere. I'm also open to some other suggestions if there's another type of run that seems really obvious and I'm overlooking. I don't think we need too many default styles, though. For instance I think "Silver Decaf" would describe a Silver run without caffeine just fine, and it's not going to need its own name just for that.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Harry Dresden » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:56 pm

Maso looks pretty interesting to me, actually. Especially if it will have its own leaderboard for shortest amount of time spent in the run. It's the kind of run that will be a bitch for anyone, old or new. And, of course, I want to be able to say I did it.

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Ryme
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Ryme » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:05 pm

Well, remember leaderboards are likely to be split into brackets, rather than by run type. These names are more for convenience in discussion, and as likely competitive sweet spots, than as leaderboards on your own.

You will likely be able to filter by various run types to see how things match up against other people. Just not officially in a predefined leaderboard.

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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby Cristiona » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:59 pm

Ryme wrote:(all items, all skills, all food, full sidekick)
(all items plus a "give me a break" point, all skills, all food, full sidekick)
(max pulls, all skills, all food, full sidekick)
(some pulls, class skills, all food, full sidekick)
(no pulls, all skills, all food, full sidekick)

Okay, I understand no pulls, but what's the difference between all items, all items plus break, max pulls, and some pulls?

I don't really think Maso would be an enjoyable type of run to play, but I suspect some people out there will want to do it
Are you kidding? I think it sounds awesome. A true test of the player's skill. Then again, I'm the one with 60 HOxy runs in a row, so my viewpoint might be skewed.
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Re: OMG RETCON! (discussion)

Postby blackmatter615 » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:35 pm

depending on what limited sidekick means, it sounds pretty much like starting all over from scratch as a hero with a sewn closed mouth... Id probably do that run a few times, especially for some sweet rewards...
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