Skill points 83.5% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

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Skill points 83.5% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:53 pm

Just added the first half of the skill points dealie. Everyone should have 2x your current level in points. There are a large handful of exceptions noted below, but most (75%?) of skills work with skill points now.

Basics:
* You'll get 2 skill points every time you level up
* Skills start at 0 points and can be raised up to 10
* You assign skill points from your character page (character link in header, or click your name on the left)
* For the most part the improvement on any skill is linear with the number of points, though there are a few exceptions (mostly where you get a small bonus because otherwise 9 and 10 would have been the same)
* Non-class skills automatically start at 10 points - no need to invest in them
* If you transmog, obviously you lose all your skills, which also deletes any invested points. You get new points when you level up.

Other notes:
* Full equations for all the skills (including future buffs) are listed in the game manual. Of course this is a complete SPOILER. Don't go there if you don't want it spoiled.
* Popups won't have the full equation spoiled, just the general effect. (I think they're updated to match the changes, mostly removing specific numbers, which would be inaccurate.)
* Exceptions: I don't quite have all the details worked out on the computer skills, catalyze and metalmorph, or the sidekick summon skills.
* Also still working on a few skills where invested points is supposed to reduce the cost.

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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Cristiona » Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:13 pm

Well... um... First Aid seems to have been updated... but Gadgeteers never get no love.

Also... the combat frequency modifying skills kinda confuse me. The cap is plus or minus 20%, or four pieces of modification as all modifiers are 5%. Except now, the skills can swing up to 6%. I guess it lessens the draw-back of only having 2 additional modifiers (as you'll be at 16% instead of 15%), but it seems kinda... minimal.

I guess it's more because of the formula than anything, but it seems that one could stop putting points into Stealth after 6 and suffer no penalties.
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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby seventhcross » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:44 pm

not sure aura vigor is working quite right for me. I noticed my hp was lower, so I put the 10 points into my aura vigor, but it didn't change my hp. I even shook off the aura and put it back on. Is this not going to refresh until after rollover?
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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:02 pm

Cristiona wrote:Well... um... First Aid seems to have been updated... but Gadgeteers never get no love.

Also... the combat frequency modifying skills kinda confuse me. The cap is plus or minus 20%, or four pieces of modification as all modifiers are 5%. Except now, the skills can swing up to 6%. I guess it lessens the draw-back of only having 2 additional modifiers (as you'll be at 16% instead of 15%), but it seems kinda... minimal.


Gadgeteers will get theirs soon enough.

Note that none of the combat-affecting skills have been adjusted yet. In part because of some of that weirdness. They're just the flat 5% right now.

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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:04 pm

seventhcross wrote:not sure aura vigor is working quite right for me. I noticed my hp was lower, so I put the 10 points into my aura vigor, but it didn't change my hp. I even shook off the aura and put it back on. Is this not going to refresh until after rollover?


Edited: It is mixed up, but in a way that's hard to explain. It's ignoring points for now, but giving the original values instead of the recalculated ones. (So 30% HP capacity, instead of the 20% advertised). Can't be fixed tonight, hopefully can be tomorrow.

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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:44 pm

Swear I tested that invest link multiple times. Not sure what's going on there.

With retcon, one of the plans is to give more skill points sooner, so with more runs you'll get more benefit. That may help enhance speed over time.

Haven't decided yet, but there may also be ways to get extra points -- some side quests, quest rewards, or possibly consumable pulls. None of that's guaranteed, but I do guarantee points will be more plentiful than a simple 2/level once the game is replayable.

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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Muhandes » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:07 am

Some skills still have their old descriptions:

Ant's Strength
Mantis Reflexes
Memory of the Elephant
Sniper
Aura: Vim
Meditation

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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Harry Dresden » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:59 am

I think those are all skills that aren't working with skill points just yet, so Ryme may not be updating the descriptions until they do.

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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:04 am

Exactly.

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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:13 am

I have figured out the right setup so that I can start working on the buffs. Massive behind-the-scenes code update. If all goes well, should leave everything looking exactly as it did before the update, but now I can start moving on the buffs.

The noncombat skills that aren't buffs (auras, nurture vs. nature, etc.) ought to now be responding properly to skill pints, too. (Excepting the gadgeteer ones that aren't sorted out.)

Off to work on the buffs ....

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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:32 pm

Okay, I think I've got most elemental, naturalist, and psion skills working properly now.

Exceptions:
wolf, buffalo, wind warrior, sinus of shark, stealth, mental magnetism, meditation, metalmorph, and electronic understanding.

Working on some of the gadgeteer skills next.

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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:56 pm

Upgrade armor has been revamped. Basically, I've gotten rid of the 3 "light" versions, and just let skill points gradually pump up the 3 heavy versions. As of today, the 3 light versions don't exist anymore. Anyone with that effect on their character will still have it, but it no longer does anything. I'd recommend shrugging it off and taking a useful version.

Improved Tinkering works, in that it extends the duration of Gadgeteer skills that have a duration, and it also further boosts the effects of Upgrade Armor. (It'll work on Upgrade Weapon when that skill is updated tomorrow.) As a warning, the same thing will happen to Upgrade Weapon that happened to armor - the 3 light versions are going to disappear.

Metal detector has been adjusted to its intended level.

I've realized Gadgeteers already have a skill that grants +initiative, so I think I may change part of sniper to something else. I don't know what, though. Criticals would be the obvious choice, but the Upgrade Weapon skill has that covered already.

I know I still need to update some of the popup descriptions, and I probably need to adjust the game manual pages to reflect what today's changes do. No need to remind me, and please don't waste any time trying to take detailed notes. I'll get most of it very soon, and there's too much still wrong to make it worth trying to "copy edit" what's there at the moment.

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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Cristiona » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:14 pm

Ryme wrote:I've realized Gadgeteers already have a skill that grants +initiative, so I think I may change part of sniper to something else. I don't know what, though. Criticals would be the obvious choice, but the Upgrade Weapon skill has that covered already.
Yes and no. The upgrades can manage +init and +crits, but not always. I mean, if I swap my upgrade armor around for Superabsorbance, then it wouldn't be giving me an initiative bonus.

Of course, if you really wanted to make Gadgeteers brutal ranged masters, I'd make it give slowing increasing percentage ranged damage and bonus attacks. Cap at, say, +5% damage (ranged) and +5 attacks. Could essentially be +1% damage or +1 attack every other level.
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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Muhandes » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:14 pm

Cristiona wrote:Cap at, say, +5% damage (ranged) and +5 attacks. Could essentially be +1% damage or +1 attack every other level.

retcon, level 1 with 6 attacks?

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Re: Skill points 74% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Cristiona » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:20 pm

It's a lot of potential, but there's still the whole missing chance.
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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby blackmatter615 » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:40 am

Doc Igor wrote:YM '8'. (don't forget the bracers, after all)

HTH, HAND

Am i the only one confused by this post?
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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Harry Dresden » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:53 am

s1944 wrote:Sigh.
This is what I get for building up 600641.17 minutes of Upgrade Armor and Upgrade Weapons.

As long as it is the second tier effects, you're okay. Just pump skill points in.

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Re: Skill points halfway added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Muhandes » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:58 am

blackmatter615 wrote:
Doc Igor wrote:YM '8'. (don't forget the bracers, after all)

HTH, HAND

Am i the only one confused by this post?


You mean '8'. (don't forget the bracers, after all)
Hope that helps, have a nice day.

s1944 wrote:Sigh.
This is what I get for building up 600641.17 minutes of Upgrade Armor and Upgrade Weapons.

What, you built up 600641.17 minutes of the light upgrades? What for? And how? Quite a few people have built up the heavy versions built up, and lucky for us, these are just going to improve (I suppose, with enough skill points)

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Re: Skill points 74% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Strlikecrazy » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:34 am

Good progress so far! Roll on retcon.
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Re: Skill points 74% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:48 pm

Upgrade weapons is working.

The (spoilery) skills page of the manual ought to be up to date, including noting which skills still need to be revamped.

The (non-spoilery) skill description pop-ups ought to be up to date for the skills that have been revamped. For non-revamped skills, they should still properly show what the original benefit was, because that's what they still do.

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Re: Skill points 74% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Cristiona » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:55 pm

Self-Balancing question:

Does the fumb-into-crit ability stack with +crit? In other words, if I have +20% crits (is that cap new, btw?), and I have +20% fumble, do I end with a bonus... um... 10% (30% total) crit chance?
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Re: Skill points 74% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:11 pm

Yep, it really does. Criticals and fumbles are at the opposite sides of a 1d100 roll. You'd never have both, so it's either normal, a critical, or a fumble .... with some of those possibly becoming criticals with the crit-fum skill.

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Re: Skill points 74% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:20 pm

Forgot to add I adjusted the names on a couple of the upgrade skills. Also shifted elements on the resistance skill, and the elements mixed in with the elemental damage (now called lethalize).

I still need to document the benefits given by Improved Tinkering, but that's messy and boring so I'll save it for later.

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Re: Skill points 74% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Muhandes » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:49 am

Ryme wrote:The (spoilery) skills page of the manual ought to be up to date, including noting which skills still need to be revamped.

The (non-spoilery) skill description pop-ups ought to be up to date for the skills that have been revamped. For non-revamped skills, they should still properly show what the original benefit was, because that's what they still do.


Not sure about Ant's Strength, Mantis Reflexes, Memory of the Elephant, Sniper, and Aura: Vim. The spoilery page does not mention they are yet to be revamped, but they have the old popups.

Also: When you cast Upgrade Armor you are still given a choice between Resistance, Superabsorbance, Initiative. Same for Upgrade Weapon, the options are Frickin' Sharp, Elemental Damage, Self-Balancing
Last edited by Muhandes on Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Skill points 74% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:14 pm

Thanks. Think I got all those, too.

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Re: Skill points 74% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:15 pm

And for the record, meditation, electronic understanding, mental magnetism, stealth, and sinus of the shark should be working.

I'm considering changing the +init on sniper to +1 extra attack/round with ranged weapons. Too powerful, or good call?

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Re: Skill points 74% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Cristiona » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:41 pm

Ryme wrote:mental magnetism, stealth, and sinus of the shark should be working.
So just going for the +6% at max?

I'm considering changing the +init on sniper to +1 extra attack/round with ranged weapons. Too powerful, or good call?
Ooo... max at +10 attacks? Sweet.
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Re: Skill points 83.5% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Ryme » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:45 pm

Yeah, just 6% max on each skill. I realize it doesn't quite add up right with everything else, which is universally 5% and would give you either 17 or 22%. Not sure if I should increase the max to 22, which is a weird number, or leave it as it is and see if weird strategies develop because of that.

Also, I had to redo all the math in each zone to add an extra decimal place to the calculations. On the off chance that one of the zones suddenly goes completely crazy and starts doing 90% combats or noncombats when it didn't before, give me a nudge, eh?

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Re: Skill points 74% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Muhandes » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:27 pm

Ryme wrote:I'm considering changing the +init on sniper to +1 extra attack/round with ranged weapons. Too powerful, or good call?

I think it is too powerful, both at the low-end and at the high-end.
At the low-end, consider a level 1 with permed 10 points at this. Instead of plinking, you get weapon of mass destruction. Whatever you can hit - you can 1-hit destroy.
At the high-end it almost doubles the damage output, which is already quite ridiculous for ranged weapons.

Edit: as a side note, everything I noted above was handled.

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Re: Skill points 74% added - NON-SPOILERY discussion here

Postby Muhandes » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:25 pm

Doc Igor wrote:
Muhandes wrote:
Ryme wrote:I'm considering changing the +init on sniper to +1 extra attack/round with ranged weapons. Too powerful, or good call?

I think it is too powerful, both at the low-end and at the high-end.
At the low-end, consider a level 1 with permed 10 points at this. Instead of plinking, you get weapon of mass destruction. Whatever you can hit - you can 1-hit destroy.
At the high-end it almost doubles the damage output, which is already quite ridiculous for ranged weapons.


1 extra attack/round is too powerful? The bracers give more than that... Now, if Ryme meant that it was +X attacks/round, then that might be an issue...


Oh I misread it as X attacks/round. +1 is perfectly fine, forget I said anything.


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