4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

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Satan
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Satan » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:30 am

Oh. Hmmm. New content had me thinking there was no limit. Huh. Well, I suppose 4 minutes is a lot more balanced. Now Cris just looks ridiculous >.>

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Ryme
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Ryme » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:59 am

4-minute-limit is intentional, yup. Guess I might need to put a notice in the popups about that. Three main reasons I went that way:

1) So things don't get really ridiculous, where people are playing thousands of turns a day. I don't really think most people want that, and I don't want every else to feel obligated to keep up with the few who might take advantage of it.

2) It actually lets me do more with the bonus, because I can put it in more places without fear of #1. I can throw it into some effects, for instance. Maybe even a really big effect as a quest reward. This can keep people from feeling obliged to wear nothing but all Xentrium, all the time. Or IotM equivalents to Xentrium. I want there to be reasons to choose other equipment.

3) To get out of the creative trap that had been applied specifically to shirts, where, no matter what it did, if it didn't give at least -10 seconds, it "wasn't as good as Xentrium" and thus probably wasn't worth wearing.

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Cristiona
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Cristiona » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:44 pm

The level requirements on the new gear is a little screwy. I realize it's based on the base items, but the gloves being 14 and the boots being 7 makes no sense. Frankly, given the power level of the items, future retcon environments, and the source of one of the materials, I'd think they could all just be made level 14 or 15 and be done with it.
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Ryme » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:36 pm

I thought about it, but figured a slow progression of items you could add to your outfit to improve the benefit might be interesting. I could be wrong, though.

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Cristiona
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Cristiona » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:41 pm

Hm. Don't have a problem, but the progression just seems a little... odd. Especially since, technically, you can't have the alloy until level 15. If the pants, helm, and shield were a higher level than the boots and gloves, that would make sense, as the boots and gloves give a lesser boost.

Perhaps I'm being a little OCD about this, heh.
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Ryme
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Ryme » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:16 pm

I had transmogrifiers (and eventual ascenders) in mind as part of that progression, I guess. So the level you can acquire the gear isn't necessarily affecting the level you want to wear it next time around.

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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby the SUPERnaturalist » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:50 pm

I don't really get the point of using xentrium for a mere 10 seconds. that's shaves like what, 1/27 off your turn time? unless you were doing pure noncombat or were aiming for a 7-gamma leaderboard or something, +10% chips or items or whatever is far superior
=D

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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby MagiNinjA » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:53 pm

There's always an optimal point between turns and items/chips/whatever. It's really just about hitting that point.

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Cristiona
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Cristiona » Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:22 pm

I'd wager turns are almost always more useful.

If a monster drops 100 chips, a 10% boost is 10 more chips. And extra turn is 100 more chips. Likewise, if a monster drops an item 50% of the time, a 10% item boost raises the odds to 55%. An extra turn gives you another chance at 50%. And gives a chance at getting two drops, which no amount of +item will ever give.
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Muhandes » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:16 am

I actually believe turns are very seldom more useful. Here's how I do the analysis.

Take item farming, though this is the same for chips. Getting your turn length from 4:30 to 4:25 (say, using a shoehorn) reduces turn length by 1.8%, so over all you will get 1.8% more items. Anything with 2% item drop will get you more. Getting turn length from 4:05 to 4:00 is only a slightly better 2%.

Since there is still nothing better than 2% item drop shirt, a letter shirt/xentrium breast is still the best. But there are plenty of accessories better than the 2% a shoehorn gives, and an isotope meter is twice as good as a xentrium shield. xentrium gauntlets are comparable, though slightly worse than sticky gloves. There are no item drops for helmet and boots, so you can use these for a 4 minute turn length (letter shirt, xentrium helm, xentrium boots). If you don't have a letter shirt the best you can do is 4:05.

The only case in which turn base is for sure the best is when you are going for pure number of adventures, say leaderboard or clearing the rubble.

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Cristiona
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Cristiona » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:23 am

Or hunting semi-rare encounters, or hunting any Ultra-Rare, or XP grinding, or farming for something with a high/100% drop rate...

So basically everything other than pure chip/item farming :P
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Satan » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:05 am

NEVERMIND

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MagiNinjA
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby MagiNinjA » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:44 am

Yeah, I think I agree with Satan. They definitely are not the same. It's like having an extra 2% over, for example, 100 turns, and no 2% for 104 turns. All of that can add up. We can only do the proper optimization once we have the base chip/item drops and whatever else.

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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Muhandes » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:29 pm

I totally don't follow your math.

10% item drop at base 100 turns.

2% Item bonus: You have 100 turns 10.2% drop rate: 100 * 10.2% = 1020%
-5 sec: You have 101.88 turns at 10% drop rate: 101.88 * 10% = 1018.88%

Where did you get that 5094% from? Or the 5020%?

Most generally: You have X percent drop rate, Y turns.

2% Item bonus: You have Y turns at X*(1.02)% drop rate: X * Y * 1.02
-5 sec: You have Y * 1.0188 turns at X drop rate: X * Y * 1.0188

As you see it is totally independent of X or Y. It also works if there are many foes, many items. It works exactly the same with chips.

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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Satan » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:36 pm

I was using the first rate instead of the second. It'd be 20% compared to 18.8% at 10%, so yeah, the +2% is always better than -5 seconds. -15 seconds is better than 5% item drop, -10 is better than 3%. The full -30 seconds available (with heroic efficiency) is only better than 12% items :/ However, without heroic efficiency, -60 seconds the best you can get is equal to 25% item drop... Not that that matters >.> Anyways, my mistake.

EDIT: I should however point out the advantage of the two methods is indeed proportional to X, however >.> The difference between the methods is smaller at lower X. For example, the above 10% example, the difference in percentages is 1.2. At 1%, it's .12 difference >.> It's basically (+items - +turns)*X, so difference is smaller as X is smaller.

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Cristiona
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Cristiona » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:04 pm

...

Somewhere along the line, I totally stopped understanding this thread. Lemmie try a formula of my own:

+turns = +fun = ++good


:D
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Olaf
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Olaf » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:15 pm

Cristiona wrote:+turns = +fun = ++good
= +"obligation"
<==
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Muhandes
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Muhandes » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:53 pm

Sorry for bringing numbers into this thread. Is MathMan a Superhero?

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Cristiona
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Cristiona » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:54 pm

More of a video game star...
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Corrupt Shadow
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Re: 4 minutes (enough to save the world?)

Postby Corrupt Shadow » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:42 pm

Holy crap, I remember that!
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