Twilight Forums

From the 1/22/09 radio show.

link: http://shows.kingdomofloathing.com/The_ ... 090122.mp3
time of excerpt: 1:34:00
transcript of KoL related material: http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/vb/ ... p?t=165604



Just wanted to through this up so you guys can discuss it.

cheers,
~E

Oh, that's neat. Thanks for the heads up.

That's...interesting. From how much I've played of Twelve Sands (I'm like, level 5! lulz), it's not too interesting. It's literally hack n slash to until you get items X, Y and Z. But the interface is pretty neat. And I haven't played the upper levels so I have no idea how that is.

I wonder if Jick is reading my words? >.>

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Vote for TH on global rankings!

It's not very tricky cause Ryme just decided to eventually redo IoTMs, with different flavors.

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Yes, but I think what was being mentioned was the market of IotM, such as the one that KoL has. Newer folks wanting older IotM are pretty much screwed in TH because of the size of the community and the way that the auction house works*. As of right now, even the IotM for sept, nov, and dec cannot be found in the auction house.

The different flavours are great, and they're good items for what they do and how they work within the game... but theres pretty no market for them at all past their month, good or bad, at the moment.

Mind you, I'm not saying that in any way as a negative judgement, and my thoughts on Jick's comments don't necessarily reflect his.

* its easier to miss out on something or not wish to keep it up longer if you've only got a max 3 day window.

It's not so much the size of the market, but rather the implications of the auction house.

Given
a) the 3-day limit
b) the substantial listing fee
c) that potential buyers more likely have Silver Stars than millions of liquid chips.

The mechanics of buying and selling are just vastly different. Because of the givens above most high-value trade happens in chat because it has to. Older IotM's are still available for resale, it just takes some footwork to find someone in #Trade who's selling what you're buying.

I'm pretty sure we have enough population for a sustainable IotM economy, it's just that the auction house is better optimized for the rapid movement of consumables than for long-term sale of high-value goods.

It stays roughly the same. However, I like the numerous small quests, changing food quality, increased fatigue and such. Also, there's plenty of rare stuff to try and dig out. And, of course, there's the Dungeon Runs.

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The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone
--October Project: "Dark Time"

Regarding IotMs, I think that they started appearing too soon. It would've been better to sell consumables and ego boosting items* before ascension. The biggest problem with IotMs, in my opinion, is that without ascension they're so underwhelming. Their major selling point is their use in gameplay, but currently there is no gameplay to speak of. After finishing the quests and badges, all you do is vegetate (AKA chipfarm).

The auction house I haven't liked from the beginning, but Ryme has had a mall-like alternative on his to-do list for a long time now so we are likely to see an improvement there. It won't help alleviate the scarcity of IotMs, of course. The old items will become the Hand Turkeys of KoL.


* Idea for a new mechanic perhaps? We all know how crucial a big ego is for heroes.

Yeah, I can say personally that some of the old IoTM I've seen are things I'd be absolutely giddy to get ahold of (read: almost all of them), but I just don't have the chips, and even if I did they never show up in the auction house.

It would be neat to see what kind of mall alternative could be set up, with the auction house still being present in the game as well. Having both would allow for a diverse and more interesting in-game market. And then maybe I could get some IoTM too. ;-;

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Oh me oh my, signaturism.

Speaking as someone who (massively) overpaid for some old IOTMs (although I have given up on my Pouch and Heros Cape dreams) in chat I'd like a Message Board where people could advertise that they had one for sale and how much they wanted for them, part of the problem with IOTMs is that the trade tends to be in stars which cannot be used in the AH.
I do admit that being in the UK means that I am not around when most people are selling so thats partly tough cheese as there only tended to be one seller around.
On another note, has anyone else noted the rampant inflation in the price of stars in the AH recently? They seem to have gone up in price from 125K to 250K in the last six months!

If we get mall-type stores, our "economy" will be similar to KoL's.

Until then, comparing the two seems to be a little far-fetched in my opinioin. The two economies are too dissimilar.

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I've won the 100k DD bet so many times, I should have the title "Mr. Luck"

Of course they have. I suspect that very few people are donating for stars with the intent of selling them for chips because there's almost nothing worthwhile for them to buy with those chips.

On top of that, without ascension/retcon, there's only so much else to do so a lot of people chip-farm.

Supply down * demand up = skyrocketing price

Well... when people started making twice as much in the castle as they did the cube...

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The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone
--October Project: "Dark Time"

This makes me think of something I've always wondered. OK... I can hyperfarm for in-game money or I can donate and sell ITOMs or stars so I have piles and piles of money... another option in larger games (I doubt anyone is doing it on TH but I wouldn't be suprised) is to pay someone real world money to buy in game currency. Then I can take that in game money and through the auction house, or a KOL style mall buy the things I want.

Sounds complicated and not nessicarilly the best for the game. How about if we have the ability to buy with real world money all past items of the month at an inflated cost? This will help newer players feel less locked out of the "old boys club" and be more encouraged to donate to the game and thus fund improvements for all.

1) Why would you directly pay someone money for chips when you could donate to the game and get roughly the same amount of chips anyway? Especially when doing so could get you banned?

2) Secret Society Wars does something similar. IotM's start out at the equivalent of 10 Silver Stars. For every month older an IotM is its cost goes up by 1 star until a year later it's cost is 22 stars. After that it disappears forever. This has the primary effect of keeping IotM's available longer, and the not-entirely-desirable side-effect of sharply limiting how fast an IotM can rise in value.

I actually do like keeping IotMs in longer, but it also restricts the economy to that singular price, as there is unlimited supply from said vendor (*cough*RYME*cough* ). Sometimes having a wacky economy is fun. Not the best, just fun. To be honest though, personally I would like having IotMs on sale for a year. But I know the traders won't like this, for the most part, unless they like to hold on to a stockpile of items for a very long time.

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Vote for TH on global rankings!

No, that would suck for those of us who buy multiple IotM's in hopes to make a profit off of them a few months later.

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I've won the 100k DD bet so many times, I should have the title "Mr. Luck"

My only thought on advocating this is that it grant a more level field to newer players. I was reading what people were saying about TH is a fresh start for people who sounded (like I sometimes feel) forever shut out of part of a game like KOL that has been going on for long enough that there are going to be some items I'll NEVER have access to, items that make a serious difference in game play. I advocated making the payments going to the game instead of to collectors because while an important part of the game they aren't the coder(s) and thus cannot actually improve play for anyone other than themselves and their customers. Buying stars or items to sell so you can then use the chips to buy old items is a slow and unreliable proccess... personally I would rather be able to just pay Ryme for old items than risk my money on not being able to get what I wanted because of the IG economy. While the reality might not be as perfect as this what I'd like to see is a way to promote expanding and improving a good game until it's a great one and a great one until it's amazing and so on, and I see three things that are vital to that a.) new players that want to stay for more than a little while (I was able to ascend in KOL in a month of so, and I completed all the TH content in half that time, because of course there is less of it, but still) b.) relatedly older players having fun things to do other than just trade (that's why elsewhere I'm talking about retcon options) and c.) expanding content, which in my opinion is done through making it worth the while of the management (such as increasing donations by making players able to buy ITOMs longer).

Hm. You do raise some good points. This is a very delicate issue though. But I'm hoping a non-IotM affected run will be allowed as an option. This may also ask for a revamp of the leaderboard presentation system though. Make it query based and whatnot.

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Vote for TH on global rankings!

Last I checked (which hasn't been for a while, so it may have changed) the month the item first comes out, it's $5, then the next month it's $10, then goes up 1 each month after that.

Not that I disagree, but his comes across almost the same as somebody else saying "IotMs suck for anybody that doesn't want to have to do anything."
And what's more important, anyway? Keeping the game running, or making the handful of people that do that happy? Not that I'm saying they're exclusive goals; I understand multi-buyers are good donaters. But also keeping things around longer could be better in he long run. We still have a pretty small community, and if at a later date, it becomes significantly larger, there are those that will come along and see these amazing things that they missed that they can either wait around in chat and try to buy from somebody else or just no have it, which could be really frustrating, and they see no way to be competetive with those that do have the old items and leave. I'm not saying that would happen, I'm saying it could. You just came off as incredibly narrow-minded in that post.

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Well, I've got a hat!

It's an economy... nothing stays around forever.

Guess we better start calling them Item(s) of the Month(s).

Fact of the matter is, having them around for only a month may suck for people who join 9 months later, but it keeps a steady flow of donations when people know they can't get a particular item after the month is over.

People can no longer obtain an "alpha" badge, but I don't hear anyone complaining about that (except for me sometimes).

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I've won the 100k DD bet so many times, I should have the title "Mr. Luck"

So milk it for all it's worth until it's gone. :/

People do, but not very loudly. Probably because it doesn't actually affect anything gameplay-wise. Or anything-wise, outside of just having it. I gives no advantage; IotMs do.

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<==
Well, I've got a hat!

The old IotMs give an advantage, but they aren't a necessity.

They are also status symbols, admit or not.

"He has a Heroes Cape, he must have been here a long time!"

Corrupt Shadow shrugs.

Well, I've put my two-cents in.

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I've won the 100k DD bet so many times, I should have the title "Mr. Luck"

CS, you don't quite get it. There will always be players who want any old IotMs. They are a necessity for competitive players (or future competitive players, as the situation plays out) and unless Ryme wants to do the Jick (remake old IotMs into new ones), Olaf does have a point. I mean sure, traders won't like that kind of change, but what if Ryme gave you a bunch of other things to try and sell? Like the Rainbow Pearls and/or wads in KoL or something. Things that sell but aren't achieved from donations. That, I think, might be the most advisable way to go about it.

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Vote for TH on global rankings!

Some items are status symbols others seem much more useful to certain play styles... look through the wiki and you will see specific ITOMs listed as the best (sometimes only) options for various tasks. I will admit my bias, I am not a collector, and for me it isn't about status it's about playing an enjoyable game. I think that option should be available to me and anyone that joins later... I also think that it will only increase revenue for the game. While it might "hurt" traders to an extent, I agree with MagiNinjA that there are other ways to keep that form of gameplay viable and interesting... while still allowing for a more level playing field for newer players willing to devote the time and/o/re money into the game.

This was discussed before the first item came out, and it was decided to have the current system. The concept of items that increased in price was raised, but decided against. You'd probably have to ask Ryme why.

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The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone
--October Project: "Dark Time"

Mostly, it didn't seem popular. Also, I wasn't as worried about it with normal items as with something like a consumable/skill IotM. Still, I think in the future my biggest regret of the early days will be the rarity of some of the early IotMs. On the other hand, the game wouldn't exist if I hadn't had them, so I can't regret it too much.

It's never too late to revise the system. Until it's too late. But really, I don't think it's too late to revise it some time.

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Vote for TH on global rankings!

Hindsight is 20/20.

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I've won the 100k DD bet so many times, I should have the title "Mr. Luck"