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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:16 pm 
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I had been wondering why one of my characters (I have too many) kept being listed as being on a leader board turns out he is on the has no life leader board (aka most retcons of any type) albeit 2nd from the bottom. I looked over to the right and saw the fastest retcon leaderboard and thought for my 100th or so retcon it might be interesting to take a stab at it.

Now I see that bmara did an awesome run at 9h 32m 30s and I assume (without running the actual numbers) that this is darned close to an optimal run. Side note, now I am wondering what a perfect run would entail turn wise edit: napkin math shows bmara only had 1 non-optimal turn so my math is likely off and I assume bmara's run is in fact optimal

below is what I have worked on so far. I have way to many squid discs simply because I almost never use them. Once I get to level 3 I can start using them to level, though I will need to farm up a few more of the level 3 disks (I only have 12 on hand).

My intention is to reduce my turn time and buff combat % through level 6, then switch to avoiding combat at level 7 through the remainder. One concern I have off the bat is trying to get turn length down and avoiding unnecessary turns. Once I can get 77 habits I can easily minimize turn length, until then though I will be losing 24+ seconds a turn.

OK, so I need to get black and grey sand before exiting the sewers the first time, be running positronic computers and try and maximize computer interaction. +XP is of no concern after level 2 because I have enough squid discs to level to 11 x2

So what else am I missing?


Goal Exp needed Disks needed Disk name XP / use
level 3 400 50 SQUID disc: Forgotten Etiquette 8
Level 4 850 21 SQUID disc: I Love Three Decades Ago 40
Level 5 1600 40 SQUID disc: I Love Three Decades Ago 40 4060 use SQUID disc: 30 Days to Greater Humility instead
Level 6 2500 42 SQUID disc: The Tao of the Dow 60
Level 7 3600 51 SQUID disc: The Tao of the Dow 70
Level 8 4900 61 SQUID disc: The Tao of the Dow 80 12225 use SQUID disc: Enlisted Men Say the Darndest Things
Level 9 6400
Level 10 8100
Level 11


I have plenty of squid discs plus XP
I have plenty of overclocking chips (need 5) minus time 15s
Race car driver minus time 1s
Vortex Cycle minus time 5s
Parachutist's pants minus time 10s
Nutcracker's hat minus time 5s
120 big left hooks minus Turns
Aura: Attractive Magnetism plus combat 6% 10 points
Sinus of the Shark plus combat 4% 4 points
need lion pills for +combat plus combat 5%
MacRuff's Mercantile Monitor software plus combat 5%
Garcia's Traffic Avoider software minus Combat 5%
squidopus ink minus Combat 5% 40 minutes
stealth minus Combat 6% 4 points
Aura: Repulsive Magnetism minus Combat 6% 10 points


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:21 pm 
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The real trick to a sub 15h run is lots and lots and lots of free runaway items. I'm sure bmara and the others on that list burned up a lot of endless handkerchiefs and/or red eye mind tricks.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:54 pm 
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Harry Dresden wrote:
The real trick to a sub 15h run is lots and lots and lots of free runaway items. I'm sure bmara and the others on that list burned up a lot of endless handkerchiefs and/or red eye mind tricks.


Harry, I have 120 stage hooks how many do you suspect I might need?

Napkin math says maybe 300...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:09 pm 
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Looking back at my notes, you forgotten etiquette should be used until level 5, just to cut down on squid farming (it's not that much less optimal). Then 30 days for level 6, tao of the dow until 8, public broadcasting until 10, humans in the desert for 11. You could use tao of the dow until 11, if you didn't want to farm villains for discs, but obviously needs a lot more discs. You'll want to have Fast Learner at 10 points at the very beginning of the run, as it greatly boosts xp from squids, and it wouldn't hurt to have more than 10 bonus skill point items to help you along in certain skills. Make sure you have the best helmet you can afford for +squid xp, and buy smoke grenades from the market when they're in. I would say I used about 400 red-eye mind tricks to run away, the majority of those being used in quest 4 and quest 8 and quest 11. Unfortunately it's likely you'll still have some non-optimal turns in those 3 quests, but the rest are more or less easy to get the right adventures.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:27 pm 
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Thanks Satan,
I already have all the squid discs just from retconning and my subscribers only coupons (in fact I have enough to go from 3-11 two times over. I also have close to 600 bonus skill points saved and get 11-12 per level. I have been hanging on to my bonus points just to see if there was a badge for having exactly 1000 of them.

I had been planning to drop 10 points in fast learner. It would be nice to have access to the cephelopod helm for the run, and that would save me turns since it would mean I could use disks from level 1, but I don't see any for sale and I don't have the extra cash anyways :cry: I loved thee 3 decades ago give substantially more XP and are usable at level 4, and I have ±1600 subscription vouchers if I need more of them.

Good to know you used ±400 red-eyes that gives me a number of stagehooks to shoot for, pity I sold off my own big left hooks before thinking to try and break the 10 hour mark.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:21 pm 
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Harry Dresden wrote:
The real trick to a sub 15h run is lots and lots and lots of free runaway items. I'm sure bmara and the others on that list burned up a lot of endless handkerchiefs and/or red eye mind tricks.

Handkerchiefs are stunners :P

RKBrumbelow wrote:
Now I see that bmara did an awesome run at 9h 32m 30s and I assume (without running the actual numbers) that this is darned close to an optimal run.

Very close, yes. Zillow crunched the numbers, but that was before the changes to the casino and sewer quest.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:02 am 
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I might be completely mistaken, but ...., wouldn't farming synesthesia + burning shoes + free runaways + disco demolition on frayday night fever (takes you 60 seconds back in time) make *any* run time non-optimal?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:34 am 
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xKiv wrote:
I might be completely mistaken, but ...., wouldn't farming synesthesia + burning shoes + free runaways + disco demolition on frayday night fever (takes you 60 seconds back in time) make *any* run time non-optimal?

Do you mean optimal? In theory, it could be possible. But the risk you run is that you get the patrol where you absolutely have to pick an option that uses a turn. It seems unlikely that the -1 minute patrol is > 4 times as likely as that forced non-com.

EDIT: black hole + red-eye in an area where black hole can't kill and there are no non-coms would however guarantee any run could reach 'optimal' time, but at that point, optimal time can literally be 0 hours 0 minutes by triggering 1 black hole for each minute spent. However it'd be especially red-eye consuming. If black hole's - 1 minute has a trigger rate of 10%, that's 10 red-eye's per minute. If you had say 9 hours exactly, that's 9*60 = 540 minutes, *10 = 5400 red-eyes. That's twice the amount I have currently, and I have 7 chests to summon with (granted, I have been using up alot for various things as I went).

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:10 am 
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Cristiona wrote:
Harry Dresden wrote:
The real trick to a sub 15h run is lots and lots and lots of free runaway items. I'm sure bmara and the others on that list burned up a lot of endless handkerchiefs and/or red eye mind tricks.

Handkerchiefs are stunners :P


Ain't nobody got time to remember which items really do what!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:45 am 
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Harry Dresden wrote:
Ain't nobody got time to remember which items really do what!


If only there was a website, maybe user editable, that had pages for items and summary tables. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:26 am 
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Satan wrote:
Do you mean optimal?


I meant non-optimal, because, as you yourself realized, any time can be reduced by 1 minute with enough resources ...

Quote:
EDIT: black hole + red-eye in an area where black hole can't kill and there are no non-coms would however guarantee any run could reach 'optimal' time, but at that point, optimal time can literally be 0 hours 0 minutes ...


That's assuming the game has a safeguard preventing time-spent-this-run from going below 0.
0-1=-1, -1-1=-2, ... what's the data type for storing it? Does it go to minus infinity?

BTW, if you only care about time-this-run, and not daycount, you can just use daily "free" runaways from certain wok pants.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:09 am 
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xKiv wrote:
BTW, if you only care about time-this-run, and not daycount, you can just use daily "free" runaways from certain wok pants.


I just wanted to try something for my 100th retcon. If I have enough stuff left over I might do it 2x in one night, just because.

for run 101 (or 2) I will probably start a grind to 50, simply because I haven't done it on this particular character at which pint I think I am out of available known badges. Now IFF I had access to black holes, I would likely try and see if it is possible to do a zero time run, again... just because, unfortunately I did not donate that month so it is not an option.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:16 am 
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I think I'll make a zero-time run next on my list, right after I finally go get the transmog badge. I have alot of the squid discs necessary already, and apparently I wasn't paying attention to my red-eye count for awhile, I'm up to 4420. Might start farming big left hooks to speed up getting to around 5400 runaway items. As for calculating run time, I'm not sure how the calculations are done. If it's a simple start timestamp difference with end timestamp, I suppose it could be a negative value, but it could also overflow and be the longest retcon ever. We'd have to ask Kinak how it's calculated, because I'm stopping when I hit 00:00:00.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:29 pm 
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All -1 minute combat items use the same counter, and you can't trigger more than one -1 minute per combat.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:03 pm 
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Cristiona wrote:
All -1 minute combat items use the same counter, and you can't trigger more than one -1 minute per combat.

That's why you need the free runaways. Get in the battle, throw the black hole star, hope for -1 minute, then free runaway. You set yourself back 1 minute in total if it triggered, you gain no time if it didn't. The only way to counter act this method would be to track the amount of time actually spent each turn (and not the -1 minutes). It's possible this is already the case, I haven't checked, but it feels more likely it's a simple subtract start time from finish time.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:56 am 
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I had never realized the black hole star exists since I don't have a set. It's kind of a silly mechanic. Not sure why the -1 minute isn't limited to X times a day or is applied at the end of combat.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:05 am 
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mara wrote:
I had never realized the black hole star exists since I don't have a set. It's kind of a silly mechanic. Not sure why the -1 minute isn't limited to X times a day or is applied at the end of combat.


In all fairness the .1 proc rate makes its practical use for a 0 time run nearly prohibitively expensive.

Farming:
'Big left hooks' is a .2 proc villan and a .14 drop ±.028 (call it .03)
'Red-eye mind trick' is in the realm of 2-3 a day
'Ouch's clown make-up' I do not know how many per day 1-.1 I am guessing from the description
'Foil's gold bricks' requires gold foil and a 'Pile of Bricks' (.1) but gold foil is the real limiter here
'Flash Powder' is unspaded from 'apprentice stalker' also unspaded guessing .125 x .14 ±.018
'Wight out' is .012 every 2-2.5 hrs or about .003
'Red card' requires Gobs of goo and playing cards (this post is too long already no more looking up numbers)

Long story short we are talking about a lot of farming or cash to get to 5400 runaway items projected needed for a 0 time run.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:02 pm 
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mara wrote:
I had never realized the black hole star exists since I don't have a set. It's kind of a silly mechanic. Not sure why the -1 minute isn't limited to X times a day or is applied at the end of combat.

The two sources of in-combat -1 minute require Wok item(s) which is a limiting factor right away. The star gift set only had one black hole star in it, so you would need multiples. And since nobody sells black hole stars alone (or any of the stars, so much for that plan), you'd probably end up needing several unopened sets. The other source (which uses the same flag) requires the gloves and boots from April of last year, and triggering the boots requires 5PP. While throwing the boot effect is the same every time, what effect you get is random (as per prismatics). Only Heather Robinson/Doc Igor actually put out the effort to gather numerous black holes (12, if I recall) to "ensure" that she could get -1 minute every combat. Assuming the foes could survive that much psychic damage. Remember, each star is also doing between 5*Level and 7*Level (up to 50-70) damage.

Therefore, doing so with multiple stars is unlikely at best, which leaves you farming insane amounts of run-away items. It's further compounded by the fact that if you're pre-leveling with SQUIDS, you won't be able to use stars against foes in areas low level than you, which means you'll need even more run-aways so you can post-facto grind down your time. Frankly, this falls into the category of "if you really want to spend this much time, effort, and money, you deserve it."

As for your implied question, we didn't think to limit it to per day because we figured there was enough of a built-in limiter with only being able to use a star once and the low odds of -time. Having it trigger on use makes narrative sense, and means that you get the bonus even if you lose the fight. Also, it may have been easier to code that way.

And finally, well, there are far more abusive quirks in the game.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:57 am 
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But if someone does do a 0 time run, will Kinak let it stand on the leaderboard for all time?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:21 pm 
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Satan wrote:
But if someone does do a 0 time run, will Kinak let it stand on the leaderboard for all time?


I suspect 1 of 2 things will occur:
1) IFF negative time runs are possible -> it will stand until it gets bumped off the board

2) A new board for total turns used (not time spent) will appear.

Cristiona wrote:
And finally, well, there are far more abusive quirks in the game.

Don't you mean Quirkz


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:13 am 
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9 Hours 24 Minutes 53 Seconds

I made at least 4 mistakes costing me 16 minutes and 23 seconds.
I used 4 Smoke Bombs and 163 Stage hooks

Also I made a mistake in counting numbers of SQUID disks as a note the bay provides sufficiently tough adversaries that you can use a memory box on them and a turn skipper just fine, in fact this is what I did to replace the missing Squid disks at level 2 and 3


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Great run, RKB! That *almost* makes me want to retcon again :P

EDIT: Next you need to take a shot at a 3-day SIlver run (or any other no-pull run).


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